View Poll Results: Should women be allowed to specialize as infantry

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  • Yes, and they should be integrated with the males

    101 57.71%
  • Yes, but keep their units seperate from male units

    16 9.14%
  • No, but women should be given some basic infantry skills beyond basic training

    33 18.86%
  • No, women should never serve in a role where they may encounter combat

    15 8.57%
  • Other....

    10 5.71%
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Thread: Should females be allowed to specialize as infantry in the military?

  1. #641
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    Re: Should females be allowed to specialize as infantry in the military?

    Quote Originally Posted by 1069 View Post
    Hmm. 100% of the four. That would be... um, four of them, right?
    And "a few" of the 95 men fell off too.
    How many is "a few"? More than four?

    If there had been 95 women and four men in the course, do you think it's possible that all four of the men could've fallen?
    Do you think all 95 of the women would've?
    Liberals will reach as far as they have to try and rearrange reality to suit their beliefs. It's kind of sad actually.

    Liberalism is a mental disorder.

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    Re: Should females be allowed to specialize as infantry in the military?

    Quote Originally Posted by smartaleck View Post
    The problem I had was their might me a few women that could do it and that they should be able to at least try . Just because I knew the majority of women couldn't do it didn't make it fair that the few women who could do it couldn't get a fair chance to prove it one way or the other.
    Absolutely. Now, more often than not, the male ego is at stake and the "He-Man-Woman-Hater-Club" or argument of "tradition" is in effect. However, the truth is that some women are absolutely tough enough to be 0300s. They are few, but they do exist.

    I believe the Marine Corps made a mistake in 1997(?) Before this, women went from Boot Camp to their MOS schools and followed up with basic infantry training once they got to the fleet. Then came a much needed breakthrough. The Commandant instructed Training Command (TECOM) to make room for the women. In 1997 (or '96), the first female Marines graduated Boot Camp and went to Marine Combat Training (MCT) and then went to MOS school just like the men. However, this is where they made a mistake. The women were thrown in with the men and the training quickly became less intensive to accomodate the abilities of the women. (18 mile hikes became 12 mile hikes, run paces slowed, etc.) By the end of the year, the women were seperated out into their own training commands along side the men, so that they could receive training in accordance to their abilities and the men could get back on track.

    The dark side of this is that this is now used to "prove" that women can't do it. But this is a general mood. There are plenty who believe that if a woman truley wishes to live the life of the infantry, then she should be able to at least take some sort of indoc to prove capabilities. This, of course, couldn't be something where she could work towards taking, because there must be a natural baseline ability present. The reason is because the rigors of being in the infantry don't stop and there must be a base line of strength and endurance.

    But there would be other considerations. Logistics would be tough. The infantry is not constructed for "coed." We watch Battlestar Galactica or Starship Troopers or Aliens or movies of the like where men and women dress together in locker rooms, but this isn't practical in our society.

    I believe it is do-able. But ultimately, its our politicians that have to approve of something like this. Combat training is one thing. Sending women on patrols where enemy is imminent is another. I don't think America is ready to stomach dead American women on CNN.



    Quote Originally Posted by smartaleck View Post
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  3. #643
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    Re: Should females be allowed to specialize as infantry in the military?

    Quote Originally Posted by 1069 View Post
    Hmm. 100% of the four. That would be... um, four of them, right?
    And "a few" of the 95 men fell off too.
    How many is "a few"? More than four?

    If there had been 95 women and four men in the course, do you think it's possible that all four of the men could've fallen?
    Do you think all 95 of the women would've?

    You are rationalizing a way to deny this.

    The men were in their 40s and some fell because other students were shaking the cable and having fun. I was being generous by offering up that some men fell too. The truth is that if there were ten women, then ten would have fallen. They all fell at the half way point where you have to roll over and hang, flip over, and pull your boots up and over in order to go the rest of the way down. It's really tough even for some of the men who naturally possess the upper body strength. I have never seen a woman make it. Obviously some do, because they have to at least try it in Boot Camp. But this is merely an example of what women would have to do.
    Last edited by MSgt; 08-07-09 at 12:17 AM.

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    Re: Should females be allowed to specialize as infantry in the military?

    Quote Originally Posted by GySgt View Post
    Absolutely. Now, more often than not, the male ego is at stake and the "He-Man-Woman-Hater-Club" or argument of "tradition" is in effect. However, the truth is that some women are absolutely tough enough to be 0300s. They are few, but they do exist.

    I believe the Marine Corps made a mistake in 1997(?) Before this, women went from Boot Camp to their MOS schools and followed up with basic infantry training once they got to the fleet. Then came a much needed breakthrough. The Commandant instructed Training Command (TECOM) to make room for the women. In 1997 (or '96), the first female Marines graduated Boot Camp and went to Marine Combat Training (MCT) and then went to MOS school just like the men. However, this is where they made a mistake. The women were thrown in with the men and the training quickly became less intensive to accomodate the abilities of the women. (18 mile hikes became 12 mile hikes, run paces slowed, etc.) By the end of the year, the women were seperated out into their own training commands along side the men, so that they could receive training in accordance to their abilities and the men could get back on track.
    I went through MCT in the fall of 99. By that time, like you mentioned, there were no mixed platoons. Of course I was in San Diego, so i don't even know if females train MCT out there at all, cause I never saw one(I think they all might go east coast, like in boot). When I got to my MOS school, platoons were finally integrated and the intensity dropped off, because a large percentage of females could not keep up on runs. Our GySgt dropped every female in my platoon on a little 8 mile run he liked to do on Mondays for "boots" that hadn't picked up class yet, and got in trouble for it from above command. At least we didn't have to integrate PT with the sailors that we did classroom instruction with. Although a few sailors would join in our routine, voluntarily.
    "Loyalty only matters when there's a hundred reasons not to be-" Gen. Mattis

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    Re: Should females be allowed to specialize as infantry in the military?

    Quote Originally Posted by WI Crippler View Post
    I went through MCT in the fall of 99. By that time, like you mentioned, there were no mixed platoons. Of course I was in San Diego, so i don't even know if females train MCT out there at all, cause I never saw one(I think they all might go east coast, like in boot).
    East Coast training for women. Paris Island and Camp Geiger. Money was spent to accomodate the women on one side. It's easier and more cost effective. You know we don't have money.

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    Re: Should females be allowed to specialize as infantry in the military?

    Quote Originally Posted by GySgt View Post
    You are rationalizing a way to deny this.

    The men were in their 40s and some fell because other students were shaking the cable and having fun. I was being generous by offering up that some men fell too. The truth is that if there were ten women, then ten would have fallen. They all fell at the half way point where you have to roll over and hang, flip over, and pull your boots up and over in order to go the rest of the way down. It's really tough even for some of the men who naturally possess the upper body strength. I have never seen a woman make it. Obviously some do, because they have to at least try it in Boot Camp. But this is merely an example of what women would have to do.
    If 95 white people and 4 black people took a written test, say a test to get into college, and all four black people plus "a few" of the white people failed it, would that prove that all black people are unsuited for higher education?
    Would it be reasonable or fair to assume that "if ten black people had taken the test, all ten would've failed it"?

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    Re: Should females be allowed to specialize as infantry in the military?

    Quote Originally Posted by smartaleck View Post
    If your going to quote me then quote me don't just take the parts of my statements to make a point. I said that I had to laugh because my husband was one of those old white dudes. When someone say's they are laughing that usually means something is funny not to be taken seriously.
    I did not take it seriously? I said it could be seen as sexist and not racist.

    Stop jumping to conclusions and making asinine assumptions.

    Quote Originally Posted by smartaleck View Post
    If I'm no offend about my husband being called a old white dude why should you be? I know some people here don't have a sense of humor but really not to even know a joke when you see it?
    Please point out where I said I was offended or even implied it?

    Quote Originally Posted by smartaleck View Post
    Some people are only here to be serious and to prove they are right and everyone else is wrong and that's their thing and good for them. If you want to make a mountain out of a molehill more power to you.
    Ummm.. It is an Internet discussion and debate forum?

    Quote Originally Posted by smartaleck View Post
    I have stated over and over I'm not here to get in arguments with people who already have their minds made up . It's a wast of time to me. Thats my thing.
    Then don't, and start actually reading what those debating you are saying.

    Quote Originally Posted by smartaleck View Post
    Hope you have a beautiful Friday. Stop and smell the flowers or in some cases pollution Have fun smile life is short.
    Always do, thanks.
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    Benjii likes the protests...he'd be largely irrelevant without them. So he needs to speak where he knows there will be protests against him and that makes him responsible for the protests.
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    Re: Should females be allowed to specialize as infantry in the military?

    Quote Originally Posted by 1069 View Post
    If 95 white people and 4 black people took a written test, say a test to get into college, and all four black people plus "a few" of the white people failed it, would that prove that all black people are unsuited for higher education?
    Would it be reasonable or fair to assume that "if ten black people had taken the test, all ten would've failed it"?
    Your replacing of the gender difference, with racial difference is disingenuos in this scenario. It is likely that a higher percentage of females would fail the physical demands of the rope crawl, if the numbers were even because men enjoy a physical advantage over women in the physical requirements of this particular obstacle. Just like women would more than likely do less pull-ups on average as males, run slower times than males, or do anything requiring strength and endurance. Thats not to say there aren't women that cannot perform as well as other men, but when you look at what is required in terms physicality, men on average enjoy a natural advantage over women. There's no way to be obtuse with numbers to try and change that fact.
    "Loyalty only matters when there's a hundred reasons not to be-" Gen. Mattis

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    Re: Should females be allowed to specialize as infantry in the military?

    Quote Originally Posted by G.I. Joe View Post
    Liberalism is a mental disorder.
    My wife is liberal and she is wonderful.

    It is not a mental disorder. I could point to quit a few conservatives that would qualify though.
    Quote Originally Posted by Moot View Post
    Benjii likes the protests...he'd be largely irrelevant without them. So he needs to speak where he knows there will be protests against him and that makes him responsible for the protests.
    Quote Originally Posted by Absentglare View Post
    You can successfully wipe your ass with toilet paper, that doesn't mean that you should.

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    Re: Should females be allowed to specialize as infantry in the military?

    Quote Originally Posted by Blackdog View Post
    My wife is liberal and she is wonderful.

    It is not a mental disorder. I could point to quit a few conservatives that would qualify though.
    It's excusable for your wife to be a liberal. She's a woman. For a grown man to be a liberal, however, is absolutely pathetic. I can understand if you're some teenage pothead with no concept of how the world works, but when you grow up and put man pants on its time to earn your own money and tell the government that you can take care of yourself.

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