View Poll Results: Should women be allowed to specialize as infantry

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  • Yes, and they should be integrated with the males

    101 57.71%
  • Yes, but keep their units seperate from male units

    16 9.14%
  • No, but women should be given some basic infantry skills beyond basic training

    33 18.86%
  • No, women should never serve in a role where they may encounter combat

    15 8.57%
  • Other....

    10 5.71%
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Thread: Should females be allowed to specialize as infantry in the military?

  1. #491
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    Re: Should females be allowed to specialize as infantry in the military?

    Quote Originally Posted by Blackdog View Post
    That is not true and you know it.
    Yes, it is. And I do know it.


    Females entering jobs they are not physically able to do and then taking someone to court.
    Who said anything about taking anyone to court? I did'n't.

    However, I agree that we are in dire need of tort reform to prevent dumbass lawsuits from clogging up our system

  2. #492
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    Re: Should females be allowed to specialize as infantry in the military?

    Quote Originally Posted by Blackdog View Post
    It does not make a difference if higher numbers of injuries are caused With fewer recruits.

    Did you read the study? Or are you just assuming?

    So far you have put forth opinion only. Please get some evidence to back your argument up. We could sit here and argue opinion all night and it would mean nothing.
    What are you talking about? "Evidence" to back up the 'argument' that people who didn't complete the training shouldn't be veterans???

  3. #493
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    Re: Should females be allowed to specialize as infantry in the military?

    Quote Originally Posted by rivrrat View Post
    Yes, it is. And I do know it.
    I am a 5'10 200lb man. I know damn well it is much MUCH harder to lift 200lbs of dead weight.

    It is simple physics, and your statement is not at all true.

    Quote Originally Posted by rivrrat View Post
    Who said anything about taking anyone to court? I did'n't.
    It is all part of the same argument. If they can't pass the same test (and most can't) they go to court.

    Quote Originally Posted by rivrrat View Post
    However, I agree that we are in dire need of tort reform to prevent dumbass lawsuits from clogging up our system
    I agree but it does not change the fact that females should not be in front line combat units. I have posted evidence to show this.
    Quote Originally Posted by Moot View Post
    Benjii likes the protests...he'd be largely irrelevant without them. So he needs to speak where he knows there will be protests against him and that makes him responsible for the protests.
    Quote Originally Posted by Absentglare View Post
    You can successfully wipe your ass with toilet paper, that doesn't mean that you should.

  4. #494
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    Re: Should females be allowed to specialize as infantry in the military?

    Quote Originally Posted by rivrrat View Post
    What are you talking about? "Evidence" to back up the 'argument' that people who didn't complete the training shouldn't be veterans???
    Nice fallacy.
    Quote Originally Posted by Moot View Post
    Benjii likes the protests...he'd be largely irrelevant without them. So he needs to speak where he knows there will be protests against him and that makes him responsible for the protests.
    Quote Originally Posted by Absentglare View Post
    You can successfully wipe your ass with toilet paper, that doesn't mean that you should.

  5. #495
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    Re: Should females be allowed to specialize as infantry in the military?

    Quote Originally Posted by Blackdog View Post
    I am a 5'10 200lb man. I know damn well it is much MUCH harder to lift 200lbs of dead weight.

    It is simple physics, and your statement is not at all true.
    Well, I've done it and it's really not that hard. I've never noticed the difference between someone pretending to be unconscious and someone who actually is. Not in any of my training or practical application of it.


    It is all part of the same argument. If they can't pass the same test (and most can't) they go to court.
    And hopefully thrown out. Whether or not they go to court is irrelevant unless we're talking about tort reform.


    I agree but it does not change the fact that females should not be in front line combat units. I have posted evidence to show this.
    What evidence? I've not seen any at all. I've seen only opinions and conjecture.



    Quote Originally Posted by Blackdog View Post
    Nice fallacy.
    Dude... WHAT are you talking about??! I posted that people who don't finish training shouldn't be considered veterans. You posted, in reply to that, that I needed "evidence" to back up my 'argument'. I asked you a question to clarify if that was seriously what you wanted 'evidence' for and your reply is "nice fallacy"??

    Seriously, WTF am I missing here? I stated "What are you talking about" for a reason. Because I didn't have a ****ing clue what you were talking about and how anything you said related to what you quoted.

  6. #496
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    Re: Should females be allowed to specialize as infantry in the military?

    Quote Originally Posted by rivrrat View Post
    Well, I've done it and it's really not that hard. I've never noticed the difference between someone pretending to be unconscious and someone who actually is. Not in any of my training or practical application of it.
    I have done it as well and I know it is harder. Like I said you can't argue with the physics of it.

    When a person is awake, they do a few things that enhance their weight distribution in your arms.

    First, they tend to try to equalize their weight distribution so their center of gravity is adjusted for their personal comfort. This tends to distribute their weight, and therefore the force you feel on your arms, over a broader area. This makes them easier to carry, and you find that the weight does not feel the same.

    Second, if they are more than 7 or 8 months old, they will cling or hold on to you, supporting their own weight somewhat across the broader parts of your body. For instance, carrying a toddler, they will wrap their arms around your neck and shoulders for their own comfort and safety. This then distributes more weight across your upper body and shoulders, where it is easier to bear.

    "Dead Weight" is the entire center of mass being wherever you are supporting them, absent any effort on their part, and therefore concentrated in one spot, more or less. A similar perceptive effect can be felt by holding some heavy weight with your feet spread apart, then the same weight with your feet together, or on one foot. The difference in "feel" is very perceptible, but no less real.
    - [ame=http://askville.amazon.com/dead-weight-feel-heavier-noticeable-gain-perception/AnswerViewer.do?requestId=25826360]Why does dead weight feel heavier than just weight? What causes this noticeable weight gain or perception[/ame]

    Quote Originally Posted by rivrrat View Post
    And hopefully thrown out. Whether or not they go to court is irrelevant unless we're talking about tort reform.
    It was part of the story, you decided it was some kind of major part of it not me.

    Quote Originally Posted by rivrrat View Post
    What evidence? I've not seen any at all. I've seen only opinions and conjecture.
    You have got to be kidding?

    "It is impossible not to notice that every one of the 42 rookies graduating on December 7 is male.

    Three women were supposed to graduate. One was a 48-year-old grandmother an emergency medical technician and former airport baggage handler who failed key physical tests just weeks into the fire-academy training. Another, a young former soccer player for Notre Dame, nearly made it through, but failed on drills to raise heavy wooden ladders against a building as firefighters must do during a fire. The third was a tough former Air Force intelligence officer, terminated from the academy because she couldn't maintain the grueling pace.
    "

    "The cross-gender (F/M) odds ratio for discharges because of overuse injury rose from 4.0 (95% CI 2.8 to 5.7) under the gender-fair system to 7.5 (5.8 to 9.7) under the gender-free system (P=0.001). Despite reducing the number of women selected, the gender-free policy led to higher losses from overuse injuries.

    This study confirms and quantifies the excess risk for women when they undertake the same arduous training as male recruits, and highlights the conflict between health and safety legislation and equal opportunities legislation.
    " - Injuries among female army recruits: a conflict of legislation -- Gemmell 95 (1): 23 -- JRSM[/QUOTE]

    I suppose you missed all that?

    Quote Originally Posted by rivrrat View Post
    Dude... WHAT are you talking about??! I posted that people who don't finish training shouldn't be considered veterans. You posted, in reply to that, that I needed "evidence" to back up my 'argument'.
    I was talking about evidence to back up your positions in general. You have posted nothing.

    Quote Originally Posted by rivrrat View Post
    I asked you a question to clarify if that was seriously what you wanted 'evidence' for and your reply is "nice fallacy"??
    Yes because it has nothing to do with my original point and you are dragging this off topic.

    Quote Originally Posted by rivrrat View Post
    Seriously, WTF am I missing here? I stated "What are you talking about" for a reason. Because I didn't have a ****ing clue what you were talking about and how anything you said related to what you quoted.
    I covered it all above.
    Last edited by Black Dog; 07-15-09 at 12:14 AM.
    Quote Originally Posted by Moot View Post
    Benjii likes the protests...he'd be largely irrelevant without them. So he needs to speak where he knows there will be protests against him and that makes him responsible for the protests.
    Quote Originally Posted by Absentglare View Post
    You can successfully wipe your ass with toilet paper, that doesn't mean that you should.

  7. #497
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    Re: Should females be allowed to specialize as infantry in the military?

    Quote Originally Posted by Blackdog View Post
    I have done it as well and I know it is harder. Like I said you can't argue with the physics of it.
    Physics or not, I've never noticed any perceptible difference.
    It was part of the story, you decided it was some kind of major part of it not me.
    No, actually, I didn't. I didn't even bring it up. You did.

    You have got to be kidding?

    "It is impossible not to notice that every one of the 42 rookies graduating on December 7 is male.

    Three women were supposed to graduate. One was a 48-year-old grandmother an emergency medical technician and former airport baggage handler who failed key physical tests just weeks into the fire-academy training. Another, a young former soccer player for Notre Dame, nearly made it through, but failed on drills to raise heavy wooden ladders against a building as firefighters must do during a fire. The third was a tough former Air Force intelligence officer, terminated from the academy because she couldn't maintain the grueling pace.
    "

    "The cross-gender (F/M) odds ratio for discharges because of overuse injury rose from 4.0 (95% CI 2.8 to 5.7) under the gender-fair system to 7.5 (5.8 to 9.7) under the gender-free system (P=0.001). Despite reducing the number of women selected, the gender-free policy led to higher losses from overuse injuries.

    This study confirms and quantifies the excess risk for women when they undertake the same arduous training as male recruits, and highlights the conflict between health and safety legislation and equal opportunities legislation.
    " - Injuries among female army recruits: a conflict of legislation -- Gemmell 95 (1): 23 -- JRSM

    I suppose you missed all that?
    [/quote]
    All that shows is that not all women are up to the task. (Nor all men, for that matter) Nothing more. Where is your evidence that women who pass all required training are not 'cut out' for what they were trained for?

    I was talking about evidence to back up your positions in general. You have posted nothing.
    Which position, specifically?

    Yes because it has nothing to do with my original point and you are dragging this off topic.
    Well, you're the one who posted what I replied to. If it had nothing to do with your point and was off topic, perhaps you shouldn't have posted it?

  8. #498
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    Re: Should females be allowed to specialize as infantry in the military?

    Quote Originally Posted by rivrrat View Post
    Physics or not, I've never noticed any perceptible difference.
    I don't believe you did, and the real world physics backs me up.

    Also someone pretending to be dead weight is not the same thing.

    Quote Originally Posted by rivrrat View Post
    No, actually, I didn't. I didn't even bring it up. You did.
    This is exactly what I mean.

    I did not say you brought anything up first. I said it was part of the story, and you made a big deal out of it, not me.


    Quote Originally Posted by rivrrat View Post
    All that shows is that not all women are up to the task. (Nor all men, for that matter) Nothing more. Where is your evidence that women who pass all required training are not 'cut out' for what they were trained for?
    That is not the whole story. You are not looking at the big picture.

    In the military the majority of men pass the physical requirements that the majority of women cannot. This sets up a bad situation for ground combat units.

    Not enough women could pass to put them in separate units, and this is just for starters. Now lets add the special needs women have and it gets just a little worse.

    We can't put men and women into ground combat units due to the possibility of pregnancy etc and unit cohesion. The military is already having problems with this in non-combat units. Actually it has always been a problem. This will make it worse.

    All of this adds up to a no win situation for our ground combat units.

    Many more reasons exist, but it would take many pages to list it all.

    Quote Originally Posted by rivrrat View Post
    Well, you're the one who posted what I replied to. If it had nothing to do with your point and was off topic, perhaps you shouldn't have posted it?
    I did, but you instead of looking at my point went for a pretty irrelevant part. But in your defense I probably could have worded it better.
    Last edited by Black Dog; 07-15-09 at 12:38 AM.
    Quote Originally Posted by Moot View Post
    Benjii likes the protests...he'd be largely irrelevant without them. So he needs to speak where he knows there will be protests against him and that makes him responsible for the protests.
    Quote Originally Posted by Absentglare View Post
    You can successfully wipe your ass with toilet paper, that doesn't mean that you should.

  9. #499
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    Re: Should females be allowed to specialize as infantry in the military?

    Quote Originally Posted by Blackdog View Post
    That is not the whole story. You are not looking at the big picture.

    In the military the majority of men pass the physical requirements that the majority of women cannot. This sets up a bad situation for ground combat units.

    Not enough women could pass to put them in separate units, and this is just for starters. Now lets add the special needs women have and it gets just a little worse.

    We can't put men and women into ground combat units due to the possibility of pregnancy etc and unit cohesion. The military is already having problems with this in non-combat units. Actually it has always been a problem. This will make it worse.

    All of this adds up to a no win situation for our ground combat units.

    Many more reasons exist, but it would take many pages to list it all.
    I don't see a problem at all with fewer women being able to pass the tests. I do, however, see an issue with separating the units. As far as pregnancy goes, with required birth control - for both genders - this wouldn't be an issue in the slightest.

    The unit cohesion is a problem with the men, not the women. They just need to grow the **** up.

  10. #500
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    Re: Should females be allowed to specialize as infantry in the military?

    Quote Originally Posted by rivrrat View Post
    I don't see a problem at all with fewer women being able to pass the tests. I do, however, see an issue with separating the units. As far as pregnancy goes, with required birth control - for both genders - this wouldn't be an issue in the slightest.
    Like I said it is a whole list of things. Can you see to people in a combat unit being involved protected sex or not? It would be a disaster.

    Quote Originally Posted by rivrrat View Post
    The unit cohesion is a problem with the men, not the women. They just need to grow the **** up.
    Oh that is not a sexist statement without any evidence to back it up.
    Quote Originally Posted by Moot View Post
    Benjii likes the protests...he'd be largely irrelevant without them. So he needs to speak where he knows there will be protests against him and that makes him responsible for the protests.
    Quote Originally Posted by Absentglare View Post
    You can successfully wipe your ass with toilet paper, that doesn't mean that you should.

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