View Poll Results: Should women be allowed to specialize as infantry

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  • Yes, and they should be integrated with the males

    101 57.71%
  • Yes, but keep their units seperate from male units

    16 9.14%
  • No, but women should be given some basic infantry skills beyond basic training

    33 18.86%
  • No, women should never serve in a role where they may encounter combat

    15 8.57%
  • Other....

    10 5.71%
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Thread: Should females be allowed to specialize as infantry in the military?

  1. #221
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    Re: Should females be allowed to specialize as infantry in the military?

    Quote Originally Posted by talloulou View Post
    I have not seen one guy or even yet one woman assert that women in general are equal to men in size, stature, and upper body strength.
    Strawman.

    They asserted that they have worked with women who could handle the physical demands of infantry work, along with men who weren't particularly physically well-suited for the job and still managed to be creditable infantryman.

    Let's get down in the grit. You claimed I'm asserting women are delicate flowers - which I've never even come close to alluding to. I've just repeatedly pointed out that they're not as strong and they get pregnant.
    1. Pregnancy is a choice. It comes about as the predictable result of certain preceding activities. As such, it is fully preventable. Require women to get norplants if it makes you feel better.

    2. Plenty of women are AS STRONG as some of the men who are currently accepted into infantry roles. And, that was asserted by at least 2 posters here.

    To be clear, and hopefully you will understand: Women do not have to be AS STRONG as men, they just have to be STRONG ENOUGH to do the job.

    So, point blank are women - in your mind- equal to men in strength, size, and stature?
    Point blank: Are you capable of arguing this WITHOUT resorting to logical fallacies like this one?

    Also, given that we have an all voluntary military, it strikes me that no one is being forced, at present, to serve. Another misstep on your part.
    Last edited by Catz Part Deux; 05-27-09 at 02:20 PM.

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    Re: Should females be allowed to specialize as infantry in the military?

    Quote Originally Posted by Catz Part Deux View Post
    It has not been my experience that allowing women as cops has "dumbed down" the field. In my experience, female officers bring different strengths to the job than males do, and they tend to balance each other out.

    ...

    I am with you on the going home to families, but women already seem to do okay on extended TDY. At least as well as men do. So, that seems moot to me. We're talking about performance of job duties.
    Not "dumbed down", but weakened, as in reducing the overall physical fitness of the unit. It doesn't matter much with cops, after all, they're not typically dealing with the cities most fit people, and they're trained in various modes of combat, and the criminals usually aren't. The criminals want to avoid controntation with the law and minimize the effects of any interaction. Also, the criminal knows the authority of the law is against him. The defects introduced into the police departments by hiring female cops aren't obvious, and balanced to some degree by the advantages of using females to deal with females.

    A soldier can expect to confront the best the enemy nation has to offer. That enemy will be trained, physically fit, and it should be assumed his desire isn't to avoid confrontation with the law, but to kill you, and he not only has legal authority to do so, but can anticipate recognition and promotions if he's good at his job.


    Friggin' law enforcement isn't war, and it's past foolish of you to persist in drawing non-existent parallels.

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    Re: Should females be allowed to specialize as infantry in the military?

    Quote Originally Posted by Scarecrow Akhbar View Post
    Not "dumbed down", but weakened, as in reducing the overall physical fitness of the unit.
    Pick your terms and stick with them. I'm tired of your fluctuating playing field.

    It doesn't matter much with cops, after all, they're not typically dealing with the cities most fit people, and they're trained in various modes of combat, and the criminals usually aren't.
    This is a direct contradiction of your earlier comments.

    The criminals want to avoid controntation with the law and minimize the effects of any interaction.
    You don't know much about criminals, do you?

    Also, the criminal knows the authority of the law is against him. The defects introduced into the police departments by hiring female cops aren't obvious, and balanced to some degree by the advantages of using females to deal with females.
    So, in saying that they aren't obvious, you're basically capitulating to your inability to make your case about the dumbing down? Thought so.

    A soldier can expect to confront the best the enemy nation has to offer. That enemy will be trained, physically fit, and it should be assumed his desire isn't to avoid confrontation with the law, but to kill you, and he not only has legal authority to do so, but can anticipate recognition and promotions if he's good at his job.
    Is this true of the average infantryman in the U.S.? Methinks you are now holding women to a standard that MEN aren't even held to at present.
    Last edited by Catz Part Deux; 05-27-09 at 02:37 PM.

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    Re: Should females be allowed to specialize as infantry in the military?

    Quote Originally Posted by Catz Part Deux View Post
    Strawman.

    They asserted that they have worked with women who could handle the physical demands of infantry work, along with men who weren't particularly physically well-suited for the job and still managed to be creditable infantryman.
    Since women aren't in infantry now these would be assertions without merit. Guesses at best.

    1. Pregnancy is a choice. It comes about as the predictable result of certain preceding activities. As such, it is fully preventable. Require women to get norplants if it makes you feel better.
    It is an inherent issue that distinguishes men from women and getting pregnant while deployed is a problem.

    2. Plenty of women are AS STRONG as some of the men who are currently accepted into infantry roles. And, that was asserted by at least 2 posters here.
    No they're not. These folks undergo training to the extent that by the time they are battle ready they are in peak shape, peak condition.

    There are not plenty of 21 year old women who are as strong as 21 year old men when both sexes are presenting in peak condition. There just aren't. There may be exceptionally small men and exceptionally big women but these would be the exceptions, the rarities. In general, when you take men and women of the same age in peak condition there simply are not going to be PLENTY of women who have more upper body strength than men. So just saying it doesn't make it true.


    To be clear, and hopefully you will understand: Women do not have to be AS STRONG as men, they just have to be STRONG ENOUGH to do the job.
    Perhaps when the job is a 9-5 well defined role. However being sent out with a unit on an actual battle mission is quite different. The job changes with a beat of the heart, the individual strength of any single member could immediately make the difference between life and death. If one person needs to have all the weight of their gear as well as being able to carry the entire weight of another person with all their gear and this becomes a problem because you have weaker women in the unit that is UNACCEPTABLE.



    Point blank: Are you capable of arguing this WITHOUT resorting to logical fallacies like this one?

    Also, given that we have an all voluntary military, it strikes me that no one is being forced, at present, to serve. Another misstep on your part.
    When talking about whether or not women should be allowed to serve in infantry discussing the biological facts regarding the differences in upper body strength is NOT a logical fallacy simply because you like tossing that phrase around.

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    Re: Should females be allowed to specialize as infantry in the military?

    Quote Originally Posted by talloulou View Post
    Since women aren't in infantry now these would be assertions without merit. Guesses at best.
    Okay, so first, it was that women weren't equal to men. Now, it's that women aren't there, competing, so their assertions (even though they are coming from men who have done the job) are baseless...to you.

    Somehow, I find their opinions more compelling than yours. Have you been in combat? By what is your opinion distinguishable as that of an expert?

    It is an inherent issue that distinguishes men from women and getting pregnant while deployed is a problem.
    Already addressed. Norplant them, for god's sake, since you're so concerned.

    No they're not. These folks undergo training to the extent that by the time they are battle ready they are in peak shape, peak condition.
    Says you. Other posters on the board who've actually served in combat have noted that there are men in the infantry who aren't particularly physically suited for the job.

    Which opinion to choose?

    There are not plenty of 21 year old women who are as strong as 21 year old men when both sexes are presenting in peak condition. There just aren't.
    Again, more slowly, this time. They are not required to be EQUAL. They are required to perform the job responsibilities. TWO DIFFERENT THINGS.

    How long will you persist in creating false arguments?

    There may be exceptionally small men and exceptionally big women but these would be the exceptions, the rarities. In general, when you take men and women of the same age in peak condition there simply are not going to be PLENTY of women who have more upper body strength than men. So just saying it doesn't make it true.
    Do you think that repeating the same, debunked argument will make it more true?

    Perhaps when the job is a 9-5 well defined role. However being sent out with a unit on an actual battle mission is quite different. The job changes with a beat of the heart, the individual strength of any single member could immediately make the difference between life and death. If one person needs to have all the weight of their gear as well as being able to carry the entire weight of another person with all their gear and this becomes a problem because you have weaker women in the unit that is UNACCEPTABLE.
    How is it more unacceptable than having men who may not be at the same level of all their peers? Do you believe that all men in the infantry are equal, physically?

    When talking about whether or not women should be allowed to serve in infantry discussing the biological facts regarding the differences in upper body strength is NOT a logical fallacy simply because you like tossing that phrase around.
    NO. It's a logical fallacy because you've shifted the grounds of discussion.

    1. Male posters here have posited that they have served with females that they believe could perform the physical demands of the role.
    2. They pointed out that some smaller males might be perceived as having difficulties, but that didn't stop them from making excellent soldiers.

    Nowhere has the argument been that women must be or are biologically equal to men. That's your hangup. They just have to be equal to the demands of the job.

    Further, are you now planning to eliminate all 35 year old and older men from combat since they may be out-performed by some 21 year old infantrymen? You realize, right, that the military already has differing physical standards for men and older men?
    Last edited by Catz Part Deux; 05-27-09 at 02:38 PM.

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    Re: Should females be allowed to specialize as infantry in the military?

    Quote Originally Posted by Catz Part Deux View Post
    I would prefer that both males AND females met physical ability requirements. I have no problem with equal standards, though I think you are overestimating the number of times in a career that someone might be called upon to do this....male or female.
    Only ONE failure would be too many, right?
    Last edited by Scarecrow Akhbar; 05-27-09 at 02:41 PM.

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    Re: Should females be allowed to specialize as infantry in the military?

    Quote Originally Posted by Scarecrow Akhbar View Post
    Only ONE failure would be too many, right?
    Oh, really? How many failures are male infantrymen allowed? What percentage of male infantrymen wash out?

    Why the double standard, Scarecrow?

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    Re: Should females be allowed to specialize as infantry in the military?

    Quote Originally Posted by Catz Part Deux View Post
    Pick your terms and stick with them. I'm tired of your fluctuating playing field.
    Since I have not once used the term "dumbed down", you need to fix YOUR terms. I was correcting your imposition of your negative concepts onto the ideas I presented.

    Quote Originally Posted by Catz Part Deux View Post
    This is a direct contradiction of your earlier comments.
    Cite an earlier post in which I stated that criminals were specifically trained in combat.

    Quote Originally Posted by Catz Part Deux View Post
    You don't know much about criminals, do you?
    You don't know much about soldiering, do you?

    Quote Originally Posted by Catz Part Deux View Post
    So, in saying that they aren't obvious, you're basically capitulating to your inability to make your case about the dumbing down? Thought so.
    Since I didn't make a case about "dumbing down", I can't say that I'm capitulating anything.

    The case I made that you're choosing to adress via ad hominem attacks is that copping ain't sojering, and that the copping industry has a niche market that makes putting split tails on the force a sensible option for certain circumstances. There are no niches in the sojering industry, infantry, in which it makes sense to employ females.

    Quote Originally Posted by Catz Part Deux View Post
    Is this true of the average infantryman in the U.S.? Methinks you are now holding women to a standard that MEN aren't even held to at present.
    That's correct. The phyical requirements for the males were watered down to make it possible to retain enough females to meet EEO quota requirements, just like they did with the cops and with the fire departments.

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    Re: Should females be allowed to specialize as infantry in the military?

    Quote Originally Posted by Catz Part Deux View Post
    Oh, really? How many failures are male infantrymen allowed? What percentage of male infantrymen wash out?

    Why the double standard, Scarecrow?
    You do understand the difference between war and crime, right? In war, the job of the infantry man is to see the enemy and shoot him, if they can't finagle a way of dropping a mortar round on his head.

    The job of the first responding agent to the scene of a civillian accident is to rescue the victims.

    Killing.

    Rescue.

    Hmmmm....yeah, probably different job goals, ya think?

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    Re: Should females be allowed to specialize as infantry in the military?

    Quote Originally Posted by talloulou View Post
    I have not seen one guy or even yet one woman assert that women in general are equal to men in size, stature, and upper body strength.

    So let's get a clear response on that. Are you claiming they are or not? Or are you claiming for certain jobs the differences may not matter and may be actually beneficial? (I can agree with this for certain jobs. However infantry isn't one of them.)

    Let's get down in the grit. You claimed I'm asserting women are delicate flowers - which I've never even come close to alluding to. I've just repeatedly pointed out that they're not as strong and they get pregnant.

    So, point blank are women - in your mind- equal to men in strength, size, and stature?

    If you admit the obvious; that they are not then how do you justify forcing men to serve in battle alongside women who are not as strong as their male peers??????

    Oh and please answer without anecdotes about your job helping urban youth.
    Talloulou, you are aware that not every combat job requires large physical strength? You are aware that some women are in fact quite strong physically? You are aware that some men are not all that strong? You are aware that as Catz has linked and quoted, military physical standards and PT tests are not about actual strength to do a job but about overall physical fitness?

    Now, with that in mind, if strength standards where implemented and made universal for combat duty, then how exactly would you use strength as an issue against women in combat. It is pretty obvious that changes would be needed to make women in combat ideal, and I think that is one of the changes that would be needed.

    As far as the pregnancy thing, I thought we took care of that last night, when you gave numbers, and it turned out that, using the numbers you supplied, only 1.8 % of female British Soldiers in Iraq ended up getting pregnant.

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