View Poll Results: Should women be allowed to specialize as infantry

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  • Yes, and they should be integrated with the males

    101 57.71%
  • Yes, but keep their units seperate from male units

    16 9.14%
  • No, but women should be given some basic infantry skills beyond basic training

    33 18.86%
  • No, women should never serve in a role where they may encounter combat

    15 8.57%
  • Other....

    10 5.71%
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Thread: Should females be allowed to specialize as infantry in the military?

  1. #161
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    Re: Should females be allowed to specialize as infantry in the military?

    Quote Originally Posted by Scarecrow Akhbar View Post
    You feel like confessing or sumpthin'? Have you done something wrong along the lines of what I've been describing and taken unfair advantage of your vagina to harm a fellow officer or his career or promoted your own career?
    Nope. Just been a straight up bad ass all my days. If I had a problem with one of my guys, I talked TO HIM.

    One year, the sergeant in my unit copied his naked ass on a christmas card and left it on my desk. The guys in the unit sat around like school girls waiting for Christmas morning. I saw it when I came in, and put it down, moving on to different work. That wasn't the reaction he wanted, so he came over to my desk, and said, "Are you going to sue me for sexual harassment?"

    I said, "No, Arb. I'm going to sue you for harassment, your ass is too damn ugly to be sexual."

    To me, the only way to deal with these kinds of situations is with humor.
    Last edited by Catz Part Deux; 05-27-09 at 12:13 AM.

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    Re: Should females be allowed to specialize as infantry in the military?

    There is no doubt that women have performed courageously and admirably in combat in Afghanistan and Iraq. The disappearance of the "front line" has made the battlefield equally dangerous for any type of unit, and thus, females in those "non-combat" units.

    First, I don't like the analogy that some have made of pilots (in comparison to Infantry), because I don't think you can really compare the two. I believe a woman should be allowed to pilot any aircraft, because at the end of the day, she doesn't lay her head down with 100 grunts.

    To me, this debate is not about ability. Many women have the capability of doing anything a man can do if not out-do. The real issue is about women living with an infantry company in combat on a day to day basis. I will use my own experiences to make this judgment.

    In 2007, I was in an infantry company in Iraq, living on a remote outpost (not a FOB). For the first 5 months of combat, we had no females at our outpost. I would regard the company as one of the more disciplined I've served in. After five months, we required additional support to move our troops out to missions. 3 five-ton trucks with female drivers were attached to us. Even though we afforded them their own living space (which wasnt mandatory), problems began almost immediately. All three females started to linger around the platoon bays nightly. They began relationships with NCOs, subverting the chain of command, and were engaged in sexual activity with other lower enlisted Soldiers, as well. This caused more than one fist fight. Sex was happening in the outhouses, in the platoon bays and in the vehicles. Adultery was committed on a number of occasions. The staunch discipline we enjoyed prior to their arrival was starting to erode. My commander chose to have them sent back to their support units and "swapped" for male truck drivers. All detrimental effects reversed immediately. We found out later that one of the females became pregnant, and was sent home.

    -Later, living on another remote outpost in Iraq during 08-09, the unit i was under had a combat support company attached to it. There were about ten females in this company. We weren't there for a month and the drama began. One female became pregnant. Another committed adultery. Fights between male soldiers erupted over girlfriends. Females were hopping on convoys to other FOBs to have "conjugal visits" with their boyfriends in other units. Then another female became pregnant. Then a female NCO began a relationship with a soldier that worked for her. Eventually, there were sexual assault accusations, he said, she said. And on, and on, and on. It was a mess.

    Now this may sound like I am blaming females, I am not. I am blaming the fact that they were living with a predominantly male unit many times on FOB's. There would have been no issues if they weren't there. Of course, there are many answers to this. Some could blame male soldiers for lack of discipline. I know I do. Others would say that both males and females are to blame. Others would blame the chain of command for turning a blind eye and not wanting to do anything about the issues. But one must understand how difficult it is for a male commander to do the finger pointing.

    The best environment for female soldiers is to be around other female soldiers. For one, they will have female leadership that can address the issues specifically. If combat MOSs and AFSC's were opened up to females, their numbers in the infantry battalions and combat units would be low, causing situations similar to the ones that I have outlined.

    I have served in units that were all male, and others that were mixed. Just based off what I've seen, a female presence in an all-male infantry unit will cause a disruption in discipline, and thus, cause a disruption to combat operations. This is not a matter of females being qualified or unfit to serve; this is a matter of human nature.

    As for females in SOF, I would vehemently disagree. The physical requirements are so difficult than in all likelihood, most women would not be able to make it through SOF selection. If and when they did, it would be likely that there would only be a few females in the SOF force and the same problems I've outlined above would occur. Not to mention, the primary mission of SOF is to work with foreign armies and militias. In most cultures that we fight wars in, a female wouldn't be considered a legitimate counterpart by HNF or militia leadership. This is why the army doesn't allow females to be advisors for MiTT teams in Iraq or Afghanistan. A good call, in my opinion.

    I re-iterate, this isn't about the ability of females or the fact that they just cant cut it in combat-i know they can. This is about the potential disruption that they will cause in infantry and other all-male units. They (females) may not intend for these disruptions, but it will happen. I've seen it to many times to be naive.

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    Re: Should females be allowed to specialize as infantry in the military?

    Quote Originally Posted by Redress View Post
    So, maybe I missed it. What does women not serving in subs with you, that you brought up, have to do with women serving beside men in the service? Are you somehow trying to deny that women have served with men in some capacities since at least Korea? or are you making some claim that just is not clear?
    Some submariners seem to just have a strong antipathy to sharing their seamen.

    God, that is just the gift that never stops giving.

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    Re: Should females be allowed to specialize as infantry in the military?

    Quote Originally Posted by Benzin388 View Post
    Even though we afforded them their own living space (which wasnt mandatory), problems began almost immediately. All three females started to linger around the platoon bays nightly. They began relationships with NCOs, subverting the chain of command, and were engaged in sexual activity with other lower enlisted Soldiers, as well. This caused more than one fist fight. Sex was happening in the outhouses, in the platoon bays and in the vehicles.
    Let me just note that the kind of women who might try for infantry positions, including having to complete tough physical training, would be very different career-wise, from the kind who want to drive trucks for a living.

    Just my perception.

  5. #165
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    Re: Should females be allowed to specialize as infantry in the military?

    Quote Originally Posted by Benzin388 View Post
    In 2007, I was in an infantry company in Iraq, living on a remote outpost (not a FOB). For the first 5 months of combat, we had no females at our outpost. I would regard the company as one of the more disciplined I've served in. After five months, we required additional support to move our troops out to missions. 3 five-ton trucks with female drivers were attached to us. Even though we afforded them their own living space (which wasnt mandatory), problems began almost immediately. All three females started to linger around the platoon bays nightly. They began relationships with NCOs, subverting the chain of command, and were engaged in sexual activity with other lower enlisted Soldiers, as well. This caused more than one fist fight. Sex was happening in the outhouses, in the platoon bays and in the vehicles. Adultery was committed on a number of occasions. The staunch discipline we enjoyed prior to their arrival was starting to erode. My commander chose to have them sent back to their support units and "swapped" for male truck drivers. All detrimental effects reversed immediately. We found out later that one of the females became pregnant, and was sent home.
    First, thank you for your service. We do not say that nearly enough.

    Now that the nice part is over, I want to comment on what I quoted above. This is exactly why NJP was invented. A CO who takes the problem seriously, and along with senior NCO's who do not turn a blind eye, and these problems do go away. Find some one in the service in the 60's, especially the navy. Ask them what things where like between black and white sailors. It was ugly. What it took was a basic zero tolerance rule, and any one who caused problems could expect 1 warning that only cost him alot of money and extra duty. Second time gone. It took time, but now issues between white and black sailors are very rare.

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    Re: Should females be allowed to specialize as infantry in the military?

    Catz,


    A couple of questions.


    In your dept, are the physical requirments the same for men and women?


    If they are differnt, do you think that is fair/right/safe?



    I also see you really haven't addressed my position that you are incorrect in your assumption that, being a police officer is as dangerous or life threatening as being in combat.


    thanks.,
    Let evil swiftly befall those who have wrongly condemned us

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    Re: Should females be allowed to specialize as infantry in the military?

    I say no. I served in an infantry unit during my active duty time. Given the nature of the situations, the long deployments, and the stress...women would simply complicate the issue. Relationships would develop, morale would be adversely affected, and the unit's ability to focus on it's mission would be compromised severely at the troop level.

    I do think there are some women out there who can keep up with the males in regard to humping (no not that kind of humping) a ruck and fighting. I've seen some very small, very timid males get through infantry training and actually go on to become good soldiers. So don't think because a woman is physically smaller in stature that this disqualifies her for making a good combat specialist.

    My point of view is only along the lines of integrating females into male dominated infantry units. I would make the same case for armor and artillery.
    Last edited by Lerxst; 05-27-09 at 10:44 AM.
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    Re: Should females be allowed to specialize as infantry in the military?

    Quote Originally Posted by Reverend_Hellh0und View Post
    Catz,
    A couple of questions.
    In your dept, are the physical requirments the same for men and women?
    If they are differnt, do you think that is fair/right/safe?
    I'm not a cop. Let me spell that out first. Secondly, i don't believe they are the same, but they are, like in the military, requirements for basic fitness, not necessarily requirements to be able to perform the duty.

    And yes, I believe that is fair, given the above. I've never worked with a woman on the streets who wasn't in equal or better physical condition to her male peers. I've worked with more than a few men who've had a few too many doughnuts.

    I also see you really haven't addressed my position that you are incorrect in your assumption that, being a police officer is as dangerous or life threatening as being in combat.
    I see that you haven't addressed my response that I was specifically discussing law enforcement in urban, high crime areas, where officers are likely to be fired upon during any shift.

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    Re: Should females be allowed to specialize as infantry in the military?

    Quote Originally Posted by Lerxst View Post
    I say no. I served in an infantry unit during my active duty time. Given the nature of the situations, the long deployments, and the stress...women would simply complicate the issue. Relationships would develop, morale would be adversely affected, and the unit's ability to focus on it's mission would be compromised severely at the troop level.
    .

    YOu realize that this same argument was made 50 years ago about racially integrated units.

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    Re: Should females be allowed to specialize as infantry in the military?

    Quote Originally Posted by Catz Part Deux View Post
    I'm not a cop. Let me spell that out first. Secondly, i don't believe they are the same, but they are, like in the military, requirements for basic fitness, not necessarily requirements to be able to perform the duty.

    I am confused. YOu sound like you were saying "my dept" and that you were a cop. My bad. Perhaps you can clarify? if not, no biggie. I am just trying to see where you base your information on.

    And yes, I believe that is fair, given the above. I've never worked with a woman on the streets who wasn't in equal or better physical condition to her male peers. I've worked with more than a few men who've had a few too many doughnuts.

    I think there should be one set of qualification standards, and that they need to requal yearly. Cops who are out of shape or who can not say for example like they do in many FD's lift a "185 lb" dummy, and drag it to "safety" should not be accepted or be suspended if already on the force. male/female is irrellevant here.


    If you can't qual at that level, you have no business being in the law enforcement game, or firefighting for sure.


    I have no problem with women cops who can meet these standards. I have a huge problem with dumbing down standards to get unqualified personel into the carreer.




    I see that you haven't addressed my response that I was specifically discussing law enforcement in urban, high crime areas, where officers are likely to be fired upon during any shift.



    Sure I have, Let me address it again. In combat you have multiple beligerants who's motivation is to kill you. Even in Camden NJ, the "beligeants" do not want to shoot you, there is rarely more than one, and it happens infrequently with his motivation is to get away from johnny law.


    NOTHING at all like combat.


    Also to add, Officers go home at the end of thier shift to thier families who live in homes which are not subject to attack, etc. .,
    Last edited by ReverendHellh0und; 05-27-09 at 10:55 AM.
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