View Poll Results: Will the CA courts overturn Prop 8?

Voters
34. You may not vote on this poll
  • Yes

    16 47.06%
  • No

    18 52.94%
Page 6 of 16 FirstFirst ... 45678 ... LastLast
Results 51 to 60 of 154

Thread: Will CA do the right thing and overturn Prop 8?

  1. #51
    Sage
    Join Date
    Jan 2009
    Last Seen
    08-27-09 @ 06:41 PM
    Lean
    Undisclosed
    Posts
    6,344

    Re: Will CA do the right thing and overturn Prop 8?

    Quote Originally Posted by jallman View Post
    And I find your comments lacking. If the amendment creates a situation counter to previous amendments or clauses without specifically repealing those amendments or clauses, it was enacted improperly. Now if it had contained language specifically making previous sections null and void, then I could see your argument holding water.
    Have you citations to support your argument?

  2. #52
    Count Smackula
    rathi's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2006
    Location
    California
    Last Seen
    10-31-15 @ 08:29 PM
    Gender
    Lean
    Independent
    Posts
    7,890

    Re: Will CA do the right thing and overturn Prop 8?

    The addition of a new section in and of itself would not rise to the level of revision under the Amador and McFadden standards. Proposition 8 does not explicitly alter any other section of the California Constitution.
    The section I quoted and proposition 8 are mutually exclusive. Thus passing 8 would completely revise that section.

    The proposition is extremely brief--a mere 14 words of statutory language. Per the Amador and McFadden standards, the brevity of the initiative suggests the initiative is indeed the amendment it purports to be, rather than the revision some claim it to be.
    The length of proposal is irrelevant. Suppose I added the amendment "the police can search your house whenever they like". It is only 9 words, but would you agree that is a major revision to the constitution?

    I do not see the contention of conflict with Article I 7(b) as being persuasive, because the statutory language of Proposition 8 does not apply unequally on the basis of race, ethnicity, nor even sexual orientation.
    Using spirit of the law arguments, obviously prop 8 discriminates against homosexuals. However, even using the strictest technical definition, prop 8 is gender biased. Prop 8 would prevent a man from marrying a man. Since woman have the privilege of marrying men, it violates the equality cause. Simultaneously, men are allowed to marry women, while women are not. Either way, it doesn't pass.

  3. #53
    Sage
    Join Date
    Jan 2009
    Last Seen
    08-27-09 @ 06:41 PM
    Lean
    Undisclosed
    Posts
    6,344

    Re: Will CA do the right thing and overturn Prop 8?

    Quote Originally Posted by RightinNYC View Post
    Just saw this:

    Costa v. Superior Court, 37 Cal. 4th 986 (2006)
    Indeed, I saw that as well. From what I have gleaned thus far, I do believe the Supreme Court denied the petition on Proposition 8 without comment. To my mind, that suggests a greater reliance on Brosnahan rather than Costa. I would be leery of imputing an implied interpretation of Proposition 8 as an amendment rather than a revision based on Costa.

  4. #54
    Banned
    Join Date
    Jul 2005
    Location
    Los Angeles, CA
    Last Seen
    02-16-11 @ 07:57 PM
    Gender
    Lean
    Centrist
    Posts
    36,915
    Blog Entries
    2

    Re: Will CA do the right thing and overturn Prop 8?

    Quote Originally Posted by celticlord View Post
    Have you citations to support your argument?
    They were already given to you by another poster. I am not interested in revisiting that unless you have something new to add to counter it.

  5. #55
    Sage
    Join Date
    Jan 2009
    Last Seen
    08-27-09 @ 06:41 PM
    Lean
    Undisclosed
    Posts
    6,344

    Re: Will CA do the right thing and overturn Prop 8?

    Quote Originally Posted by rathi View Post
    The section I quoted and proposition 8 are mutually exclusive. Thus passing 8 would completely revise that section.
    They are not mutually exclusive. Proposition 8 does not fail to apply the law unequally.

    Quote Originally Posted by rathi View Post
    The length of proposal is irrelevant. Suppose I added the amendment "the police can search your house whenever they like". It is only 9 words, but would you agree that is a major revision to the constitution?
    The length is relevant when assessing whether the statutory language is revisory in nature under the McFadden standard. Amador does not invalidate McFadden but expands the potential for language being revisory to include scope. In fact, Amador addressed your point directly.

    The relevancy is that it eliminates potential grounds by which the statutory language may be considered revisory. The scope argument you raise with your example I addressed further in my post.

    Quote Originally Posted by rathi View Post
    Using spirit of the law arguments, obviously prop 8 discriminates against homosexuals. However, even using the strictest technical definition, prop 8 is gender biased. Prop 8 would prevent a man from marrying a man. Since woman have the privilege of marrying men, it violates the equality cause. Simultaneously, men are allowed to marry women, while women are not. Either way, it doesn't pass.
    "Spirit of the law" always ends up sounding like "substantive due process"--which was a judicial mistake in Dred Scott v Sanford and again in Roe v Wade, and it would be a mistake here.

    The gender equality argument is tortured reasoning at best. Further, that argument hardly has at this juncture judicial standing, given that California law SB777--the "gender identity" law--is being constitutionally challenged even as we speak.

  6. #56
    Sage
    Join Date
    Jan 2009
    Last Seen
    08-27-09 @ 06:41 PM
    Lean
    Undisclosed
    Posts
    6,344

    Re: Will CA do the right thing and overturn Prop 8?

    Quote Originally Posted by jallman View Post
    They were already given to you by another poster. I am not interested in revisiting that unless you have something new to add to counter it.
    The only court rulings cited in this thread are by myself and RightinNYC. None of them defend the argument you put forward.

  7. #57
    Banned
    Join Date
    Jul 2005
    Location
    Los Angeles, CA
    Last Seen
    02-16-11 @ 07:57 PM
    Gender
    Lean
    Centrist
    Posts
    36,915
    Blog Entries
    2

    Re: Will CA do the right thing and overturn Prop 8?

    Quote Originally Posted by celticlord View Post
    The only court rulings cited in this thread are by myself and RightinNYC. None of them defend the argument you put forward.
    I didn't say court rulings had been cited. However, others have promoted an argument that I agree with and citations were used. I have nothing more to add to their arguments and am simply stating that I find yours lacking.

  8. #58
    Sage
    Join Date
    Jan 2009
    Last Seen
    08-27-09 @ 06:41 PM
    Lean
    Undisclosed
    Posts
    6,344

    Re: Will CA do the right thing and overturn Prop 8?

    Quote Originally Posted by jallman View Post
    I didn't say court rulings had been cited. However, others have promoted an argument that I agree with and citations were used. I have nothing more to add to their arguments and am simply stating that I find yours lacking.
    A pity...because their arguments so far are wholly lacking in substantive foundation. Was hoping someone would be willing to step up and put some meat on the rhetorical bones.

  9. #59
    Banned
    Join Date
    Mar 2009
    Location
    Naperville, IL
    Last Seen
    09-24-12 @ 12:14 PM
    Gender
    Lean
    Moderate
    Posts
    11,963

    Re: Will CA do the right thing and overturn Prop 8?

    Quote Originally Posted by celticlord View Post
    Proposition 8 amended the California State Constitution. It cannot be overturned as being unconstitutional. If the courts overturn, they are rewriting the constitution; that is beyond the competence of every court.
    I am sorry, but you really don't understand the legal issues here.

    Was prop 8 an amendment or a revision? That is one of many very complicated legal issues including equal protection.

    CA supreme court is a right leaning court, but they are also strict constructionists.

    We'll know in 48 hrs.

    It was very clear that they will not be annulling the 18,000 gay marriages legally performed last year.

    The right thing many not be the legal thing to do. They are smart and fair justices.

  10. #60
    Banned
    Join Date
    Mar 2009
    Location
    Naperville, IL
    Last Seen
    09-24-12 @ 12:14 PM
    Gender
    Lean
    Moderate
    Posts
    11,963

    Re: Will CA do the right thing and overturn Prop 8?

    Quote Originally Posted by celticlord View Post
    A pity...because their arguments so far are wholly lacking in substantive foundation. Was hoping someone would be willing to step up and put some meat on the rhetorical bones.
    Are you a lawyer? If so what area do you practice in?

Page 6 of 16 FirstFirst ... 45678 ... LastLast

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •