View Poll Results: Will the CA courts overturn Prop 8?

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    16 47.06%
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    18 52.94%
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Thread: Will CA do the right thing and overturn Prop 8?

  1. #131
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    Re: Will CA do the right thing and overturn Prop 8?

    Quote Originally Posted by Goobieman View Post
    Same principle applies. Amendments, by their nature, modify existing parts of the constitution. No conflict is possible as the amendment always takes precedence.
    No, not the same principle. If it was, then lawyers would not have to pass bars for individual states.

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    Banned Goobieman's Avatar
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    Re: Will CA do the right thing and overturn Prop 8?

    Quote Originally Posted by Goldwaters View Post
    Oh, my bad, I left out the "marriage" on the second post. And I don't understand the Obama comment. Are you trying to imply that Obama had something to do with the California court decision?
    No. Just making sure you understand that The Obama is, by your definition, "anti-gay marriage" -- which it appears that you do.

    OK on the accidental omission - -just wanted to confirm that you weren't trying to equate anti-gay marriage to anti-gay.

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    Re: Will CA do the right thing and overturn Prop 8?

    Quote Originally Posted by jallman View Post
    No, not the same principle. If it was, then lawyers would not have to pass bars for individual states.
    Yes, its the same principle, and it applies wherever constitutional amendments are found. Amendments, by their nature, change existing text, regardless of specific wording to that effect. I suggest you look up 'doctrine of implied repeal'.

    Can you cite a single instance within the US where an amendment to a constitution was ruled unconstitutional on the basis of it conflicting with an existing portion of said constitution, under the agument that said amendment did not contain specific language that deletes/overrules/overrides that existing portion?
    Last edited by Goobieman; 05-26-09 at 12:59 PM.

  4. #134
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    Re: Will CA do the right thing and overturn Prop 8?

    Quote Originally Posted by Goobieman View Post
    No. Just making sure you understand that The Obama is, by your definition, "anti-gay marriage" -- which it appears that you do.
    You say that like it's supposed to affect my support for Obama if I didn't know it. I know a freighteningly large number of Obama supporters and many of them are gay, it's Northern Cal hey!. In my observations that fact has not eroded any support for him.
    Quote Originally Posted by Goobieman View Post
    OK on the accidental omission - -just wanted to confirm that you weren't trying to equate anti-gay marriage to anti-gay.
    I try not to point it out because in reality it's just a generalization. But I suspect the line between "anti gay" and anti gay marriage" is a lot more blurry than anti gay marriage proponents are willing to admit to themselves.

    Almost all of the people in my life who have expressed anti gay marriage sentiment...have also at one point or another over the years expressed anti black, anti gay, chauvanistic, and anti hispanic thoughts. Even though...I prefer honesty even if it comes in the form of bigotry, racism, or sexism over people harboring resentments, and then denying them and venting them in other childish ways.

    Just being honest about what I see, and I'm not accusing you of anything Goob.

  5. #135
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    Re: Will CA do the right thing and overturn Prop 8?

    Quote Originally Posted by Goobieman View Post
    Yes, its the same principle,
    No, it is not. The argument has been presented right here in this very thread as to how California's amendment process differs from the federal amendment process.

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    Re: Will CA do the right thing and overturn Prop 8?

    Quote Originally Posted by Goldwaters View Post
    You say that like it's supposed to affect my support for Obama if I didn't know it. I know a freighteningly large number of Obama supporters and many of them are gay, it's Northern Cal hey!. In my observations that fact has not eroded any support for him.
    Yes... and why is that?
    Just curious -- seems to me like that if gay marriage is of significant interest to you - especially if you believe that not allowing same-sex marriage violates peoples' basic rights -- that you'd have difficulty supporting someone that opposes your position.

    I try not to point it out because in reality it's just a generalization. But I suspect the line between "anti gay" and anti gay marriage" is a lot more blurry than anti gay marriage proponents are willing to admit to themselves.

    Almost all of the people in my life who have expressed anti gay marriage sentiment...have also at one point or another over the years expressed anti black, anti gay, chauvanistic, and anti hispanic thoughts.
    I guess I need to ask -- to you, what is an 'anti-gay' position?
    That gays should not exist? Or what?

    Just being honest about what I see, and I'm not accusing you of anything Goob.
    Understood

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    Re: Will CA do the right thing and overturn Prop 8?

    Quote Originally Posted by jallman View Post
    No, it is not.
    You're going to have to do a LOT better than that.

    Can you or can you not cite a single instance within the US where an amendment to a constitution was ruled unconstitutional on the basis of it conflicting with an existing portion of said constitution, under the agument that said amendment did not contain specific language that deletes/overrules/overrides that existing portion?

    That is, can you cite an example in the US where a court ruled against the doctrine of implied repeal?

    The argument has been presented right here in this very thread as to how California's amendment process differs from the federal amendment process.
    None of which has anything to do with the issue you and I are discussing.
    There was NO question before the court as to whether or not the relevant amendment of the CA Constitiiton overrides the existing text of the CA constitition; the ONLY question is as to if the correct procedure in amending the CA constitition was followed. That issue doesnt support your argument in any way.
    Last edited by Goobieman; 05-26-09 at 01:29 PM.

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    Re: Will CA do the right thing and overturn Prop 8?

    Quote Originally Posted by Goobieman View Post
    You're going to have to do a LOT better than that.
    Not really. It's already been done in this thread.

    You're gonna have to read a lot closer.

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    Re: Will CA do the right thing and overturn Prop 8?

    Quote Originally Posted by jallman View Post
    Not really. It's already been done in this thread.
    You're gonna have to read a lot closer.
    I'll take that as a "no" to my question, and that you indeed cannot cite an example of where you are right.
    Last edited by Goobieman; 05-26-09 at 01:32 PM.

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    Re: Will CA do the right thing and overturn Prop 8?

    Quote Originally Posted by Goobieman View Post
    Yes... and why is that?
    Just curious -- seems to me like that if gay marriage is of significant interest to you - especially if you believe that not allowing same-sex marriage violates peoples' basic rights -- that you'd have difficulty supporting someone that opposes your position.
    When I decided who I was going to vote for in 2008, I considered several social issues, gay marriage, abortion, stem cell research, and supreme court nominee likelyhoods. Gay marriage is the only social issue he's let me down on. I was unsure about Obama and the economy, but McCain continuing the Bush policies scared me more. So...there you have it. If you eliminate the noise from Conservatives and conservative media Obama's not in a terrible situation.
    Quote Originally Posted by Goobieman View Post
    I guess I need to ask -- to you, what is an 'anti-gay' position?
    That gays should not exist? Or what?
    Being anti gay has nothing to do with legal decisions or the legality of gay marriage. To me, if you feel gays are making a choice to be gay just to ignore your sensabilities, or they are in league with satan...you are anti gay. Furthermore...if you think a same sex orientation is unatural you are anti gay. JMO Sir.

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