View Poll Results: Will the CA courts overturn Prop 8?

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  • Yes

    16 47.06%
  • No

    18 52.94%
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Thread: Will CA do the right thing and overturn Prop 8?

  1. #121
    Student Goldwaters's Avatar
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    Re: Will CA do the right thing and overturn Prop 8?

    Quote Originally Posted by Goobieman View Post
    Anti-gay forces... like the people of CA who voted for the amendment...?

    There was a topic on this board that described how a significant portion of the support for this amendment came from hispanics and blacks, who were bought to the polls by the "get out the vote" Obama support machine.

    Go figure.
    By Anti gay forces I mean citizens who are opposed to gay marriage, and the Churches that ralley those people.

  2. #122
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    Re: Will CA do the right thing and overturn Prop 8?

    Quote Originally Posted by Goobieman View Post
    The part you're not getting is that they cannot contradict each other.
    I "get it" just fine. I don't see how you can have two blatantly contradictory portions of the Constitution without the language overturning the prior portion of the constitution. It creates a ton of legal conundrums.

  3. #123
    Banned Goobieman's Avatar
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    Re: Will CA do the right thing and overturn Prop 8?

    Quote Originally Posted by jallman View Post
    I "get it" just fine. I don't see how you can have two blatantly contradictory portions of the Constitution without the language overturning the prior portion of the constitution. It creates a ton of legal conundrums.
    No, no it doesnt.

    For instance: An amendment against flag burning does not conflict with the 1st amendment because, by its nature, it modifies the 1st amendment, even absent specific language to that effect.

    Note that NONE of the first 10 amendments (and most of the rest) contain no language that specifically modifies the portions of the Constitutioon that they modify.

  4. #124
    Banned Goobieman's Avatar
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    Re: Will CA do the right thing and overturn Prop 8?

    Quote Originally Posted by Goldwaters View Post
    By Anti gay forces I mean citizens who are opposed to gay marriage, and the Churches that ralley those people.
    Wouln't these people be more accurately referred to as 'anti-gay marraige forces' rather than 'anti-gay forces'?

    After all, I dont think The Obama is anti-gay.

  5. #125
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    Re: Will CA do the right thing and overturn Prop 8?

    Quote Originally Posted by Goobieman View Post
    No, no it doesnt.

    For instance: An amendment against flag burning does not conflict with the 1st amendment because, by its nature, it modifies the 1st amendment, even absent specific language to that effect.

    Note that NONE of the first 10 amendments (and most of the rest) contain no language that specifically modifies the portions of the Constitutioon that they modify.
    We aren't discussing the US constitution and the Bill of Rights. We are discussiong the California Constitution.

  6. #126
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    Re: Will CA do the right thing and overturn Prop 8?

    Quote Originally Posted by Goldwaters View Post
    You'd get the satisfaction of demonstrating how compassionate Conservatives are towards thier fellow humans.
    So I'd be lying....we don't care about gay couples, so I wouldn't pretend that we do.

  7. #127
    Banned Goobieman's Avatar
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    Re: Will CA do the right thing and overturn Prop 8?

    Quote Originally Posted by jallman View Post
    We aren't discussing the US constitution and the Bill of Rights. We are discussiong the California Constitution.
    Same principle applies. Amendments, by their nature, modify existing parts of the constitution. No conflict is possible as the amendment always takes precedence.

  8. #128
    Student Goldwaters's Avatar
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    Re: Will CA do the right thing and overturn Prop 8?

    Quote Originally Posted by Goobieman View Post
    Wouln't these people be more accurately referred to as 'anti-gay marraige forces' rather than 'anti-gay forces'?

    After all, I dont think The Obama is anti-gay.
    Oh, my bad, I left out the "marriage" on the second post. And I don't understand the Obama comment. Are you trying to imply that Obama had something to do with the California court decision?

    BTW, Obama's stand on gay marriage is one of the three major dissapointments I have with him. But that's another topic.

  9. #129
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    Re: Will CA do the right thing and overturn Prop 8?

    Quote Originally Posted by jallman View Post
    Except where they contradict one another.
    This is absurd.

    An amendment, by definition, is an alteration. It is, if you will, a changing of the mind--or, in the case of a constitution, of the expressed will of the people. If an amendment runs counter to a previously articulated statement within a constitution, the inevitable construction is that the amendment removes/alters that statement, so that the application of the law going forward conforms to the amendment and not the original un-amended language of the constitution.

    For this reason, it is structurally impossible for an amendment to violate anything within a constitution. It cannot be done, not under any circumstances. A constitutional amendment may be morally wrong or suspect, but it cannot ever be "unconstitutional." An unconstitutional constitutional amendment is a contradiction in terms.

    Thus, the only challenges to amendments are procedural ones. California's Constitution is somewhat unusual in that it draws a distinction between amendments and revision, placing a requirement of legislature involvement for a revision. The court rulings I have referenced earlier in this thread (Livermore, Amador, and Mcfadden) establish the distinction as being one of scope, determined by several factors including the length of the amendatory/revisory language, the number of sections of the constitution impacted by the language, and the significance of the impact of the language.

    What is most important to realize about procedural challenges is that they are intrinsically arbitrary; there is no principle of common law one can draw upon to ascertain what "should" be the just outcome--indeed, there is no "just" outcome at all, but merely an affirmation of whether the established procedures have been followed or no. In the matter of Proposition 8, the only justiciable question before the court was whether the language was revisory in nature, in which case the matter would have been improperly presented to the electorate and would of necessity be invalidated on basis. Once the Court held the language was not revisory in nature, the potential for overturning the electoral outcome was nil.

    One can plausibly argue that justice and fairness call for validation of gay marriage. One cannot plausibly argue that Proposition 8 and its rejection of gay marriage is unconstitutional.

  10. #130
    Student Goldwaters's Avatar
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    Re: Will CA do the right thing and overturn Prop 8?

    Quote Originally Posted by Jerry View Post
    So I'd be lying....we don't care about gay couples, so I wouldn't pretend that we do.
    I was joking, I know you don't care.

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