View Poll Results: Will the CA courts overturn Prop 8?

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    16 47.06%
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Thread: Will CA do the right thing and overturn Prop 8?

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    Re: Will CA do the right thing and overturn Prop 8?

    Quote Originally Posted by Goldwaters View Post
    I can't prove it...but I don't believe anti gay marriage folks are really that concerned with the institution of marriage. I don't believe they are genuinly fearful of how two women getting married 3000 miles away will compromise the fabric of thier marriage. This is not completely about marriage...it is also about denial of thier dissapproval of gays for many. I'll not assume this to be the case with you Jerry, but it is with plenty of anti gay Americans. Fifty years from now...they're going to make movies where anti gay people will be portrayed as filthy bigots standing in the way of the liberation of gays.
    I wear that truth on my sleeve every time I debate the issue.

    Prop8, both support and opposition, is about social acceptance of the gay identity.

    Social acceptance is not something any court can grant. Take desegregation, for example. Brown-v-Board of Education hasn't worked yet, and we're 50 years later. In fact, I've recently seen data in the Education forum demonstrating that people typically self-segregate by race (prison gange being another example, nearly all are race-based) defeating the purpose behind Brown for all but the rare exception.

    Me personally, I reject the 'gay-identity' as the product of a biological error, and so I will not likely ever accept gay-marriage even when it is finally legalized on the Federal level.

    The surest way for gays to win the support of folks like myself is to make gay-marriage about the family, instead of about personal rights as it is now....but no one is yet doing this.
    Last edited by Jerry; 05-25-09 at 04:19 PM.

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    Re: Will CA do the right thing and overturn Prop 8?

    Quote Originally Posted by Goldwaters View Post
    Fifty years from now...they're going to make movies where anti gay people will be portrayed as filthy bigots standing in the way of the liberation of gays.
    People make movies showing all sorts of people as being both good and bad.

    John Ford portrayed the Apache Indians sympathetically in "Fort Apache". Eight years later, in "The Searchers," he had a much less sympathetic view of Comanches.

    What movies portray about people and what people actually are rarely coincide.

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    Re: Will CA do the right thing and overturn Prop 8?

    Quote Originally Posted by celticlord View Post
    People make movies showing all sorts of people as being both good and bad.

    John Ford portrayed the Apache Indians sympathetically in "Fort Apache". Eight years later, in "The Searchers," he had a much less sympathetic view of Comanches.

    What movies portray about people and what people actually are rarely coincide.
    Okay, fair enough. How about it put this way...the prevailing social values in America in 50 years will likely have us looking upon anti gay folks in the same way we look at people who opposed inter-racial marriage in the 40's and 50's. And people who oppossed the rights of blacks earlier. And the men who opposed the right of a woman to vote. And folks who supported the legality of slavery. And so on.

    Can you admit that gay marriage, nationwide by state, will be allowed in most if not all states eventually? Or do you think otherwise?

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    Re: Will CA do the right thing and overturn Prop 8?

    Quote Originally Posted by Jerry View Post
    The surest way for gays to win the support of folks like myself is to make gay-marriage about the family, instead of about personal rights as it is now....but no one is yet doing this.
    I am confident enough to say this without asking them, but I am absolutely sure the gay people I know could care less wether or not you support them. In fact...opinons from folks like yourself, once taken to the voting booth, are simply meddling in the lives of gays. To most of the gays I know...the idea of marriage isn't a big deal. The big deal is that a bunch of people who don't know them are islolating thier demographic and making decisions about thier lives based on thier religion or homophobia.

    Please, I mean no offense and correct me if I'm wrong.

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    Re: Will CA do the right thing and overturn Prop 8?

    Quote Originally Posted by Goldwaters View Post
    I am confident enough to say this without asking them, but I am absolutely sure the gay people I know could care less wether or not you support them. In fact...opinons from folks like yourself, once taken to the voting booth, are simply meddling in the lives of gays. To most of the gays I know...the idea of marriage isn't a big deal. The big deal is that a bunch of people who don't know them are islolating thier demographic and making decisions about thier lives based on thier religion or homophobia.

    Please, I mean no offense and correct me if I'm wrong.
    I'll trade you the Gay-Marriage card if you trade me the Gun-Free School-Zone card.

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    Re: Will CA do the right thing and overturn Prop 8?

    Quote Originally Posted by Jerry View Post
    I'll trade you the Gay-Marriage card if you trade me the Gun-Free School-Zone card.
    Make it the "marriage is between a man and a woman" card and you've got a deal!

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    Re: Will CA do the right thing and overturn Prop 8?

    Quote Originally Posted by Goldwaters View Post
    Okay, fair enough. How about it put this way...the prevailing social values in America in 50 years will likely have us looking upon anti gay folks in the same way we look at people who opposed inter-racial marriage in the 40's and 50's. And people who oppossed the rights of blacks earlier. And the men who opposed the right of a woman to vote. And folks who supported the legality of slavery. And so on.
    You mean in 50 years will people engage in the same superficial revisionist demonizing of moralities and philosophies they reject and therefore don't bother to study that they do today? Sadly, I am quite certain that will be the case. The most persistent bigotry on the face of the planet is the belief in one's own moral supremacy.

    Quote Originally Posted by Goldwaters View Post
    Can you admit that gay marriage, nationwide by state, will be allowed in most if not all states eventually? Or do you think otherwise?
    The current trend is towards acceptance of gay marriage. There is no denying that.

    Will it become the national norm? That is hard to say.

    Plessy v Ferguson
    , which enshrined the standard of "Separate but equal" was not heard until 1896--a full 30 years after the end of the Civil War. Official segregation in the federal government occurred for the first time since the Civil War only during Woodrow Wilson's administration, nearly 20 years after Plessy v Ferguson. The anti-miscegenation law overturned by Loving v Virginia was passed in 1924--more than a half century after the Civil War and nearly 30 years after Plessy v Ferguson.

    It is possible the trend towards national acceptance towards gay marriage will continue. It may be that, for whatever reason, a societal backlash against gay marriage will occur and the trend will reverse itself. Extrapolating the trend towards an ultimate outcome presumes a level of understanding of human behavior greater than that which is currently supported.

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    Re: Will CA do the right thing and overturn Prop 8?

    Quote Originally Posted by celticlord View Post
    It is possible the trend towards national acceptance towards gay marriage will continue. It may be that, for whatever reason, a societal backlash against gay marriage will occur and the trend will reverse itself. Extrapolating the trend towards an ultimate outcome presumes a level of understanding of human behavior greater than that which is currently supported.
    Guess I'm gonna find out if I live to be 95. I can't even envision what sort of societal backlash could happen. What could possibly cause one unless gay marriage produces negative consequences.

    Actualy, it just dawned on me...if the spread of Aids would have coincided with the legalization of gay marriage...Christians and homophobics would scapegoat the marriage as the cause. So I take it back, I see what you mean.
    Last edited by Goldwaters; 05-25-09 at 06:02 PM.

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    Re: Will CA do the right thing and overturn Prop 8?

    Quote Originally Posted by celticlord View Post
    You mean in 50 years will people engage in the same superficial revisionist demonizing of moralities and philosophies they reject and therefore don't bother to study that they do today? Sadly, I am quite certain that will be the case. The most persistent bigotry on the face of the planet is the belief in one's own moral supremacy.
    Does that mean you've studied slavery, the early women's rights movement, and the civil rights movement...and found aspects of slavery, denial of women's rights, and denial of civil rights to be moraly and philosophically sound?

    I agree that the most oppressive bigotry comes from someone, or a group, that thinks they're moraly supreme...like the anti gay marriage folks.

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    Re: Will CA do the right thing and overturn Prop 8?

    Quote Originally Posted by Goldwaters View Post
    Does that mean you've studied slavery, the early women's rights movement, and the civil rights movement...and found aspects of slavery, denial of women's rights, and denial of civil rights to be moraly and philosophically sound?
    It means I've studied those things and found the actual history to be very different from the superficial pastiche of moralizing most people put upon them.

    Quote Originally Posted by Goldwaters View Post
    I agree that the most oppressive bigotry comes from someone, or a group, that thinks they're moraly supreme...like the anti gay marriage folks.
    Cute. Include the pro-gay marriage folk in that sentence and you have something worth reaction besides scorn and contempt.
    Last edited by celticlord; 05-25-09 at 06:39 PM.

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