View Poll Results: Do you support the Fair Tax?

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Thread: The Fair Tax

  1. #71
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    Re: The Fair Tax

    Quote Originally Posted by Scarecrow Akhbar View Post
    There are no ills to the private owernship of land that aren't made worse by either denying ownership to anyone or pretending everyone owns it.

    Ditto that for natural resources.
    Who is doing that? The ownership of land is not in question, simply that of ground rent and site rent.

    There are plenty of evils from land monopolisation and speculation, which usually comes about because the state has pre-empted and granted almost all land.

    A sales tax taxes purchases, not labor.
    Which are made by labour and mostly purchased by it.
    "It is written in the eternal constitution that men of intemperate minds cannot be free. Their passions forge their fetters." - Edmund Burke

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    Re: The Fair Tax

    Quote Originally Posted by Scarecrow Akhbar View Post
    "society".

    So you mean "labor".
    Not that of the occupier(well a tiny amount as he is part of society.) . He is already collecting the tax.



    Someone owns the land, that person is responsible for paying your "land value" tax, therefore is it completely indistinguishable from a property tax.
    No, you aren't understanding this at all. If I own a piece of vacant land in the middle of Manhattan and one an almost identical one in the middle of Wyoming they have very different prices, that is because of site rent. Are you saying that this is caused by the owners? It is caused by society. The tax, it is not really a tax in some ways, is simply a collection of that difference, of what is created by society and nature and is completely separate from the individual value of the improvements to the land.


    So what people are supporting, whether they've paid attention or not, when they support any form of land tax, is the restoration of feudalism.

    Good job, Karl.
    Aside from the absurdity of linking Marx, feudalism and me in one single post there is little of value in the above. I do not deny that the individual partially holds property in natural resources from the community but that does not mean they have many other rights to it besides that of collecting the site and ground rent which are currently being taxed to go to the private landlord at great expense to society. This they should do instead of most other taxes.

    You are aware this tax had the support of the likes of Winston Churchill and Albert.J.Nock and was viciously attacked by Marx? You should try and actually make decent rebuttals rather than insult people, you'd come out looking a lot better.
    Last edited by Wessexman; 06-01-09 at 07:58 PM.
    "It is written in the eternal constitution that men of intemperate minds cannot be free. Their passions forge their fetters." - Edmund Burke

  3. #73
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    Re: The Fair Tax

    Quote Originally Posted by Scarecrow Akhbar View Post
    No. Turning owners into renters does not promote the cause of liberty and freedom.
    I'm very much a believer in private property but that does not mean you have an absolute right to any kind of property. Which seems to be what you are saying. That you owe to society the ground rent and site rent created by them and nature is not to say you are a renter. The rights of society go only so far so as to create the necessary individual and family liberty allowing private property in land without the downsides.
    "It is written in the eternal constitution that men of intemperate minds cannot be free. Their passions forge their fetters." - Edmund Burke

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    Re: The Fair Tax

    Quote Originally Posted by Wessexman View Post
    Who is doing that? The ownership of land is not in question, simply that of ground rent and site rent.
    No. The ownership of the land is in question. If the government can impose a rent, the "owner" isn't the guy who's name is on the documents, but the guy in the state capital setting the tax rates.


    Quote Originally Posted by Wessexman View Post
    There are plenty of evils from land monopolisation and speculation, which usually comes about because the state has pre-empted and granted almost all land.
    Naturally. Almost all evil in the world comes from government.

  5. #75
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    Re: The Fair Tax

    Quote Originally Posted by Wessexman View Post
    I'm very much a believer in private property but that does not mean you have an absolute right to any kind of property.
    So in reality you like to say you believe in private property but that's has nothing to do with what you actually believe.

    Quote Originally Posted by Wessexman View Post
    Which seems to be what you are saying. That you owe to society the ground rent and site rent created by them and nature is not to say you are a renter.
    No. I said I believe in private property, which means the owner of property, by definition, doesn't have to pay rent to someone else.

    A one time point-of-purchase sales tax on a land transaction is not rent, no more than the sales tax you paid for your iPod is a rental fee.

    Quote Originally Posted by Wessexman View Post
    The rights of society
    Society has no rights. Not one single one. People have legal guarantees that the government will not intrude in certain areas, and some of these are so basic that their mistaken for rights, but the reality is that the concept of "rights" is nothing more than sloppy verbal shorthand for saying "butt out, myob, not your concern here".

    Quote Originally Posted by Wessexman View Post
    go only so far so as to create the necessary individual and family liberty allowing private property in land without the downsides.
    There are no downsides to private ownership of land.

  6. #76
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    Re: The Fair Tax

    Quote Originally Posted by Wessexman View Post
    Not that of the occupier(well a tiny amount as he is part of society.) . He is already collecting the tax.
    Let's see if I can get this straight.

    You're saying the person occupying the property, ie the "owner", has to pay the tax, therefore he's collecting it?


    Quote Originally Posted by Wessexman View Post
    No, you aren't understanding this at all. If I own a piece of vacant land in the middle of Manhattan and one an almost identical one in the middle of Wyoming they have very different prices, that is because of site rent.
    Yes. Property tax is rent. Glad to see you got that straight. Except, naturall, they're not "almost" identical. Nowhere near. If you were going to be precise in your terminology, you'd say, "same size acreage", etc.

    Quote Originally Posted by Wessexman View Post
    Are you saying that this is caused by the owners?
    It is caused by neighbors, basically.

    Quote Originally Posted by Wessexman View Post
    It is caused by society.
    All valuation of property is defined by two people, the owner and the potential buyer. If they come to an agreement on value, a sale may occur.

    Quote Originally Posted by Wessexman View Post
    The tax, it is not really a tax in some ways,
    The tax, yes, it's really a tax. It's really a tax in all ways, up to and including the gangsters with guns that will dispossess you if you don't pay it.

    Quote Originally Posted by Wessexman View Post
    is simply a collection of that difference, of what is created by society and nature and is completely separate from the individual value of the improvements to the land.
    Nature doesn't create the value of land, it merely created the land. Nature, being both inanimate and non-sentient, doesn't grok the concept of value.

    Quote Originally Posted by Wessexman View Post
    Aside from the absurdity of linking Marx, feudalism and me in one single post there is little of value in the above. I do not deny that the individual partially holds property in natural resources from the community but that does not mean they have many other rights to it besides that of collecting the site and ground rent which are currently being taxed to go to the private landlord at great expense to society. This they should do instead of most other taxes.
    "at great expense to society"? How much expense did "society" pay to create the land? Nada. How much did "society" pay to build the house on the hill George lives in? Nada. Where's this mysterious "great expense"? You're not going to babble about roads, are you, that George paid his fair share of taxes to build, just like everyone else, are you? You're not going to wobble on and on about electricity and water and sewer and all the rest are you, when George pays his share of that, are you? You're not going to utter nonsense about the highly educated force of public school graduates, are you, not when George graduated from Sidwell Friends, right?

    No, the house was built at great expense by a developer, who passed the entire cost, plus a decent profit, onto the first buyer, and who passed that cost on to the next buyer, etc, and this mythical "society" not only didn't spend much, but benefitted by all that economic activity.

    Quote Originally Posted by Wessexman View Post
    You are aware this tax had the support of the likes of Winston Churchill and Albert.J.Nock and was viciously attacked by Marx? You should try and actually make decent rebuttals rather than insult people, you'd come out looking a lot better.
    Are You aware that name dropping and other such argumentative nonsense has zero rebuttal value and is clearly indicates a failure on your part to find valid support for your argument?

  7. #77
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    Re: The Fair Tax

    With a due sense of frustration and a sense of getting nowhere I will answer your continued questions.

    Quote Originally Posted by Scarecrow Akhbar View Post
    No. The ownership of the land is in question. If the government can impose a rent, the "owner" isn't the guy who's name is on the documents, but the guy in the state capital setting the tax rates.
    Firstly I never said how it would be collected. I favour local community collection. Secondly if they can impose a tax on your income or spending then that is much the same. This is the simply the collection of ground rent and site rent, it only means that is not yours, nothing else.
    So in reality you like to say you believe in private property but that's has nothing to do with what you actually believe.
    Not an argument.


    No. I said I believe in private property, which means the owner of property, by definition, doesn't have to pay rent to someone else.
    Do you believe in slavery? Not all private property has to be defended. Property is a wide and diverse thing. The owner is not paying rent, he is giving up what society and nature produce.
    Society has no rights. Not one single one. People have legal guarantees that the government will not intrude in certain areas, and some of these are so basic that their mistaken for rights, but the reality is that the concept of "rights" is nothing more than sloppy verbal shorthand for saying "butt out, myob, not your concern here".
    Society allows you to own property, it has some sort of say over just what that means. There are ways of doing this and that is putting it simply but I don't believe that you are the absolute owner to all you claim as your private property.

    There are no downsides to private ownership of land.
    Sure there are. In the state driven monopoly ownership we are trying to limit there are. The prices goes up, rent goes up, this puts down wages and the returns to capital as these must be paid to a landlord who gets a lot of the value from the increases in production and improvement created by others.
    "It is written in the eternal constitution that men of intemperate minds cannot be free. Their passions forge their fetters." - Edmund Burke

  8. #78
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    Re: The Fair Tax

    Quote Originally Posted by Scarecrow Akhbar View Post
    Let's see if I can get this straight.

    You're saying the person occupying the property, ie the "owner", has to pay the tax, therefore he's collecting it?
    No I'm saying it is already collected by the private landlord, all I'm saying is it go to the community instead.


    Yes. Property tax is rent. Glad to see you got that straight. Except, naturall, they're not "almost" identical. Nowhere near. If you were going to be precise in your terminology, you'd say, "same size acreage", etc.

    This is not a property tax so your argument is irrelevant.



    It is caused by neighbors, basically.
    Well you admit my point good. You can call society neighbours if you want.



    All valuation of property is defined by two people, the owner and the potential buyer. If they come to an agreement on value, a sale may occur.
    Great indepth analysis.


    The tax, yes, it's really a tax. It's really a tax in all ways, up to and including the gangsters with guns that will dispossess you if you don't pay it.
    Not an argument.


    Nature doesn't create the value of land, it merely created the land.




    "at great expense to society"? How much expense did "society" pay to create the land? Nada. How much did "society" pay to build the house on the hill George lives in? Nada. Where's this mysterious "great expense"? You're not going to babble about roads, are you, that George paid his fair share of taxes to build, just like everyone else, are you? You're not going to wobble on and on about electricity and water and sewer and all the rest are you, when George pays his share of that, are you? You're not going to utter nonsense about the highly educated force of public school graduates, are you, not when George graduated from Sidwell Friends, right?

    No, the house was built at great expense by a developer, who passed the entire cost, plus a decent profit, onto the first buyer, and who passed that cost on to the next buyer, etc, and this mythical "society" not only didn't spend much, but benefitted by all that economic activity.
    I meant the expense of increased rent and land values, land speculation, lower wages and returns on capital and such. But your point above is completely wrong, I'm not saying that improvements to land don't increase its value, I'm not arguing that be taxed, simply ground and site rent, but to say it is simply these that make a piece of land more expense is obviously false hence your argument fails. That would be like saying in our example above the piece of land were of the same price. One in Manhattan and one in Wyoming.

    Are You aware that name dropping and other such argumentative nonsense has zero rebuttal value and is clearly indicates a failure on your part to find valid support for your argument?
    And who was it that started naming people like say Karl Marx? Are you aware that insults and insinuations have zero rebuttal value. Obviously you don't have much else in your arsenal but still they aren't arguments.
    "It is written in the eternal constitution that men of intemperate minds cannot be free. Their passions forge their fetters." - Edmund Burke

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    Re: The Fair Tax

    Quote Originally Posted by Wessexman View Post
    Firstly I never said how it would be collected. I favour local community collection.
    From the viewpoint of the renter, does it matter if the owner is living in town hall instead of the state capitol or the White House?

    Nope, don't matter at all.

    Quote Originally Posted by Wessexman View Post
    Secondly if they can impose a tax on your income or spending then that is much the same.
    Not really.

    One, income shouldn't be taxed, as that makes the worker the subject of the state. American citizens aren't supposed to be "subjects", they're sovereign individuals.

    Secondly, sales taxes, properly applied, are subject to the individual's choice. This means, naturally, that essentials such as food and medicine should not be subject to sales tax, nor should permanent rental residences.


    Quote Originally Posted by Wessexman View Post
    This is the simply the collection of ground rent and site rent, it only means that is not yours, nothing else.
    Right. Thus the "owner" isn't the owner, as I already pointed out.

    Quote Originally Posted by Wessexman View Post
    Do you believe in slavery?
    No. I oppose all forms of socialism and so-called "progressive" movements that merely cover for some form of socialism.

    Quote Originally Posted by Wessexman View Post
    Not all private property has to be defended.
    Why not? The function of government is to protect people from losing their lives and property to predation.

    Quote Originally Posted by Wessexman View Post
    Property is a wide and diverse thing. The owner is not paying rent, he is giving up what society and nature produce.
    The individuals making up "society" did the producing, not the society itself. Also, those individuals were already paid, and "society" isn't owed a ha'penny standup, to use a cute little phrase I picked up from Terry Pratchett.

    Quote Originally Posted by Wessexman View Post
    Society allows you to own property
    No, not if I have to pay "society" rent, it's not allowing me to own ****. Society is forcing me to be a permanent tenant.

    Quote Originally Posted by Wessexman View Post
    it has some sort of say over just what that means.
    No. Meanings are found in dictionaries.

    Quote Originally Posted by Wessexman View Post
    There are ways of doing this and that is putting it simply but I don't believe that you are the absolute owner to all you claim as your private property.
    No. Your "society" has enough guns to extort their rent from it's tenants.

  10. #80
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    Re: The Fair Tax

    Quote Originally Posted by Scarecrow Akhbar View Post
    From the viewpoint of the renter, does it matter if the owner is living in town hall instead of the state capitol or the White House?

    Nope, don't matter at all.
    Yes but he is not a renter, he simply does not own the site or ground rent. Property rights to land means quite a few things, it is only in this one respect he is not owner.



    Not really.

    One, income shouldn't be taxed, as that makes the worker the subject of the state. American citizens aren't supposed to be "subjects", they're sovereign individuals.

    Secondly, sales taxes, properly applied, are subject to the individual's choice. This means, naturally, that essentials such as food and medicine should not be subject to sales tax, nor should permanent rental residences.
    However one's choices are being taxed, one's freedom restricted, one's labour being taken. You don't have to work after all.



    Right. Thus the "owner" isn't the owner, as I already pointed out.
    He isn't the owner of the site or ground rent, it isn't the fruits of his labour nor necessary for his stable, secure ownership of real property. Hence you argument which attempts to conflate ground rent and site rent with all the aspects of land ownership fails.


    No. I oppose all forms of socialism and so-called "progressive" movements that merely cover for some form of socialism.
    Good for you. I started the traditionalists and social conservative usergroup on this site. This scheme was supported by the likes of Nock and Churchill, it is far from a socialist one.


    Why not? The function of government is to protect people from losing their lives and property to predation.
    The function of gov't is justice as Burke said I believe.


    The individuals making up "society" did the producing, not the society itself.
    So? They aren't getting the income.



    No, not if I have to pay "society" rent, it's not allowing me to own ****. Society is forcing me to be a permanent tenant.
    You aren't paying rent, the site rent and ground rent you didn't produce are being collected. That is your ultimate argument, that something you didn't produce is being taken from you and most other taxes reduced or removed and therefore somehow you are a renter? Not very convincing.


    No. Meanings are found in dictionaries.
    What


    No. Your "society" has enough guns to extort their rent from it's tenants.
    Not arguments. Not all private property rights are absolute.
    "It is written in the eternal constitution that men of intemperate minds cannot be free. Their passions forge their fetters." - Edmund Burke

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