View Poll Results: Do you support the Fair Tax?

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  • yes

    39 61.90%
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    19 30.16%
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Thread: The Fair Tax

  1. #61
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    Re: The Fair Tax is a Fraud

    Quote Originally Posted by nerv14 View Post

    So it would have to be tax inclusive... that means EVERYTHING is taxed. This includes food and medicine. So its 36% then.
    No.
    I'm sorry but you are Clueless.

    "Inclusive" and "exclusive" are just ways of Calculating Taxes NOT what's "included IN THEM!!

    ie
    An Item that now costs $1.00 retail will cost $1.30 under Fairtax.
    Fairtax calls this a "23% inclusive" rate (subtracting 23% from 1.30)...
    Instead of the way we all know, calculate and pay taxes now.
    Where this transaction is well known as a 30% Tax.

    so "36% inclusive" is Really 57% Sales tax ("exclusive") the way we all know and pay it now.
    IOW, a $1.00 item will cost $1.57.
    (not including state sales taxes etc)

    It's explained in the link nand my post you didn't comprehend at all.

    This doesn't change that Fairtax will tax EVERYTHING.: Food, Houses, Rent, Medical, etc.

  2. #62
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    Re: The Fair Tax

    Quote Originally Posted by Wessexman View Post
    I disagree. It is still a tax on labour.

    It is to Henry George that we must turn for the best taxation solution. It is a solution that not only does not tax individual labour but also helps to establish distributive justice and remedy the ills of private ownership of land and natural resources.
    There are no ills to the private owernship of land that aren't made worse by either denying ownership to anyone or pretending everyone owns it.

    Ditto that for natural resources.

    A sales tax taxes purchases, not labor.

  3. #63
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    Re: The Fair Tax

    Quote Originally Posted by Wessexman View Post
    However a land value tax is based on the income to that land that comes from society and nature.
    "society".

    So you mean "labor".

    Quote Originally Posted by Wessexman View Post
    I'm not advocating a property tax. I'm advocating a land value tax, a collection of ground rent, created by nature, and site rent, created by society, by the community. Improvements are not included.
    Someone owns the land, that person is responsible for paying your "land value" tax, therefore is it completely indistinguishable from a property tax. And when property is taxed the putative owner is nothing more than a leaseholder, his occupation of the land being dependent upon his continued payment of rent to the owner, in which the goverment is the owner and the rent being the tax.

    So what people are supporting, whether they've paid attention or not, when they support any form of land tax, is the restoration of feudalism.

    Good job, Karl.

  4. #64
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    Re: The Fair Tax

    Quote Originally Posted by Wessexman View Post
    The only thing to be taxed is the site and ground rent, all the rest is not included and the exemptions can be othered, most obviously for average size residential properties. Also I personally advocate it being collected locally, so as to make it a community or regional collection thing and not one by enforced by a centralised state.
    Right. The value of a plot of land is therefore not estimated by the value of the improvements made to is, ie structures or landscaping, but is instead determined by the value of the improvements to the adjacent properties.

    Way to go with the deceitful promotion of an unnecessary tax.

  5. #65
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    Re: The Fair Tax

    Quote Originally Posted by nerv14 View Post
    Any libertarians should read this, and it really connects a tax on land as the best possible choice of taxation.
    No. Turning owners into renters does not promote the cause of liberty and freedom.

  6. #66
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    Re: The Fair Tax

    Geoism and Libertarianism, eh?

    Libertarianism is the philosophy of live and let live. Its ethic is that it is morally wrong to coercively harm others, and not morally wrong to do what is not harmful to others.
    Libetarianism ethos is that it's wrong to coerce someone, not that it's wrong to coercivelly harm other. There's tons of coercive laws for "our own good", that are flat out wrong. Seat belts, for example.

    Geoism is the philosophy of sharing the benefits of the land (geo), while respecting the equal self-ownership of persons.
    Geoism is, therefore, anti-libertarian. Any benefits "shared" are shared by the owner of the land selling what he produces from his land for profit, or by renting the use of his land, or other modes in which the owner voluntarily seeks to exchange his gain for cash on the free and open market.

    Any involuntary mode of taxation in which a non-owner seeks to horn in on the owners profits is not a libertarian process.

    Libertarianism and geoism are complements. Geoism fills the lack of an adequate view of public finance in conventional libertarianism, while libertarianism provides a more complete view of the geoist aim of free trade.
    Oh, is that so? Libertarians must be ignorant because they don't accept feudalism as a preferred course of government finance?

    All taxation should be voluntary, ie, one can choose to not pay the tax by not engaging in the service taxed or buying the product taxed. That makes sales taxes the ultimate libertarian tax to finance the minimalist government a stable requires.


    May the day come when "geoism" and "libertarianism" are synonyms, meaning the same thing!
    Wow, they had to define the word "synonym", a word most people learn in the third grade. No, the two words will never be synonyms, because they have different meanings.
    Last edited by Scarecrow Akhbar; 05-30-09 at 11:39 AM.

  7. #67
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    Re: The Fair Tax

    Quote Originally Posted by Scarecrow Akhbar View Post
    No. Turning owners into renters does not promote the cause of liberty and freedom.
    One of the main arguments for having a land tax is simply that a government NEEDS some form of taxation to exist, and a land tax seems one of the least invasive.


    But if you want a limited government (only military, government and judicial systems) then it makes the most sense to only tax what can not be created by capital. And the only thing that people do not create in free enterprise is land and other natural resources. That means that people will be as free as possible to invest their money in anything else that can really be created.

    The link I got does go over the top about how land taxation and libertarians are so simillar, but it still makes sense that for a libertarian, a land tax would be the prefferable tax.

  8. #68
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    Re: The Fair Tax

    Every business owes much of its success to the infrastructure of the country they sell in. Bill Gates couldn't sell computer software if there weren't telephones and highways and a power grid and educated people to hire and buy from him.

    As he makes more and more profit it has more to do with there being a market that is easy to reach and wealthy and less and less to do with being very clever and a good businessman.

    Business taxes should be very progressive. Taxes should be based on the privilege of doing business in the US. Take your company overseas? Well if you want to sell your products in the US you have to pay.

    So no, Fair Tax just isn't my idea of a fair system.

    I envision more of a system where the US is a sort of stockholder of all businesses and collects its fairly earned dividends every year from corporations. Most taxes should come from companies allowed the privilege to sell here and use our infrastructure.

  9. #69
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    Re: The Fair Tax

    Quote Originally Posted by nerv14 View Post
    One of the main arguments for having a land tax is simply that a government NEEDS some form of taxation to exist, and a land tax seems one of the least invasive.
    A land tax is the most invasive, as California discovered in the 1970's as it's state government began taxing everyone that didn't move because it couldn't escape, and thereby forcing retirees out of their homes.

    Quote Originally Posted by nerv14 View Post
    But if you want a limited government (only military, government and judicial systems) then it makes the most sense to only tax what can not be created by capital.
    No, it makes the most sense to tax what people can choose to not buy, taxing land isn't one of those things.

    All sorts of items come under the optional heading.

    Tax those.

    Also, I see no reason that a one-time point of sale tax for real property wouldn't be appropriate, that could be folded into the mortgage, even. However, a permanent annual tax on land is nothing except the government usurping ownership rights from the people.
    Last edited by Scarecrow Akhbar; 06-01-09 at 12:16 AM.

  10. #70
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    Re: The Fair Tax

    Quote Originally Posted by Scarecrow Akhbar View Post
    Right. The value of a plot of land is therefore not estimated by the value of the improvements made to is, ie structures or landscaping, but is instead determined by the value of the improvements to the adjacent properties.

    Way to go with the deceitful promotion of an unnecessary tax.
    What are you talking about? Is there any possibility that you could make intelligent contributions that don't include personal insults?
    "It is written in the eternal constitution that men of intemperate minds cannot be free. Their passions forge their fetters." - Edmund Burke

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