View Poll Results: Do you support the Fair Tax?

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Thread: The Fair Tax

  1. #51
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    Re: The Fair Tax

    Quote Originally Posted by Wessexman View Post
    I disagree. It is still a tax on labour.
    How is a sales tax a tax primarily on labor? No one is forcing anyone to buy anything. What we have right now is primarily a tax on labor as earned income is taxed significently higher than passive income.
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    Re: The Fair Tax

    Quote Originally Posted by obvious Child View Post
    How is a sales tax a tax primarily on labor? No one is forcing anyone to buy anything. What we have right now is primarily a tax on labor as earned income is taxed significently higher than passive income.
    Because it is on things produced by labour, it just hits you in a slightly different place to income taxes. Instead of being taxed when you make something from labour you are taxed when you buy something of such.

    It is far better to use the land value tax on ground and site rent, it is already in use but currently goes to the private landlord who collects the produce of society and nature.
    "It is written in the eternal constitution that men of intemperate minds cannot be free. Their passions forge their fetters." - Edmund Burke

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    Re: The Fair Tax

    Quote Originally Posted by Wessexman View Post
    Because it is on things produced by labour, it just hits you in a slightly different place to income taxes. Instead of being taxed when you make something from labour you are taxed when you buy something of such.

    It is far better to use the land value tax on ground and site rent, it is already in use but currently goes to the private landlord who collects the produce of society and nature.
    All taxes are based on someone's labor one way or another.

    Even land taxes are based on what land someone was able to buy because of their labor.

    However, I can't see how a property tax is better then a sales tax in any way.

    A property tax taxes someone on their property which may reduce someone's incentive to purchase land and consume, but a sales tax does something even better by taxing people when they consume in general.

    A sales tax also has the benefits of not being a capital gains tax, so it does not reduce investments. A property tax is simillar to that, but property is also a form of an investment in the productivity of a certain area. We shouldn't put a discentive on that form of investment.


    Also, a property tax seems to be limited greatly in how much revenue it can produce because the tax is concentrated on people who have land. However a sales tax can have a larger tax base because it involves when anyone consumes anything.

    so... a sales tax is really the best tax.

  4. #54
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    Re: The Fair Tax

    Quote Originally Posted by nerv14 View Post
    All taxes are based on someone's labor one way or another.

    Even land taxes are based on what land someone was able to buy because of their labor.
    However a land value tax is based on the income to that land that comes from society and nature.

    [ame=http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Land_value_tax]Land value tax - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia[/ame]


    Land value taxation (LVT) (or site value taxation) is an ad valorem tax on the value of land. This ignores buildings, improvements, and personal property. Because of this, LVT is different from other property taxes on real estate the combination of land, buildings, and improvements to land. Every jurisdiction that has a real estate property tax has an element of land value tax, because land value contributes to overall property value.[1]
    However, I can't see how a property tax is better then a sales tax in any way.

    A property tax taxes someone on their property which may reduce someone's incentive to purchase land and consume, but a sales tax does something even better by taxing people when they consume in general.

    A sales tax also has the benefits of not being a capital gains tax, so it does not reduce investments. A property tax is simillar to that, but property is also a form of an investment in the productivity of a certain area. We shouldn't put a discentive on that form of investment.


    Also, a property tax seems to be limited greatly in how much revenue it can produce because the tax is concentrated on people who have land. However a sales tax can have a larger tax base because it involves when anyone consumes anything.

    so... a sales tax is really the best tax.
    I'm not advocating a property tax. I'm advocating a land value tax, a collection of ground rent, created by nature, and site rent, created by society, by the community. Improvements are not included.

    This tax helps to make up for the evils of private ownership of natural resources by taking that portion of income that is unearned by the owner and comes simply from nature and the work of society as a whole, this helps to end land monopolisation and speculation as profiting from land values you yourself did not create becomes almost impossible. This helps to make land more freely available, it also increases wages as a lot of the increased production of land goes to the owner of ground and site rent when the LVT is not enforced. It does all this while not taxing labour and reinforcing the importance of private ownership, even of land(minus ground rent and site rent of course.). It is also just about the only tax the rich cannot move a lot of the burden to the poor with, nor does it reduce profitable investment, quite the opposite.

    Interesting links:

    [ame]http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Georgism[/ame]


    http://geolib.pair.com/essays/sulliv.../royallib.html

    The School of Cooperative Individualism / Welcome Page
    Last edited by Wessexman; 05-29-09 at 09:57 PM.
    "It is written in the eternal constitution that men of intemperate minds cannot be free. Their passions forge their fetters." - Edmund Burke

  5. #55
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    Re: The Fair Tax

    Quote Originally Posted by Wessexman View Post
    However a land value tax is based on the income to that land that comes from society and nature.

    Land value tax - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

    Land value taxation (LVT) (or site value taxation) is an ad valorem tax on the value of land. This ignores buildings, improvements, and personal property. Because of this, LVT is different from other property taxes on real estate the combination of land, buildings, and improvements to land. Every jurisdiction that has a real estate property tax has an element of land value tax, because land value contributes to overall property value.[1]

    I'm not advocating a property tax. I'm advocating a land value tax, a collection of ground rent, created by nature, and site rent, created by society, by the community. Improvements are not included.

    This tax helps to make up for the evils of private ownership of natural resources by taking that portion of income that is unearned by the owner and comes simply from nature and the work of society as a whole, this helps to end land monopolisation and speculation as profiting from land values you yourself did not create becomes almost impossible. This helps to make land more freely available, it also increases wages as a lot of the increased production of land goes to the owner of ground and site rent when the LVT is not enforced. It does all this while not taxing labour and reinforcing the importance of private ownership, even of land(minus ground rent and site rent of course.). It is also just about the only tax the rich cannot move a lot of the burden to the poor with, nor does it reduce profitable investment, quite the opposite.

    Interesting links:

    Georgism - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

    http://geolib.pair.com/essays/sulliv.../royallib.html

    The School of Cooperative Individualism / Welcome Page
    ahhh... I see. Thanks for clearing up my confusion.

    Yeah, when I was looking in wikipedia about "liberal-libertarians" or "democratic-libertarians" it talked about this type of tax on land and natural resources.

    I said to myself that I supported that tax because about how natural resources are in limited suppply forever (when things like wealth or population) can grow expodentially.

    I agree with that tax that you were talking about, but I just see problems with it from people originally buying land from the government at one point. I just believe if you tax land after someone purchases it, then that isn't really buying that land, only renting it. That relates to my distaste of taxes on property.

    Maybe if the government was more direct, in how people can only "rent" land (from having to pay taxes on it) then I would support a land tax more.


    Edit: thanks for the links. The wikipedia one was very interesting, so I will check out the others.
    Last edited by nerv14; 05-29-09 at 09:56 PM.

  6. #56
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    Re: The Fair Tax

    Quote Originally Posted by nerv14 View Post
    ahhh... I see. Thanks for clearing up my confusion.

    Yeah, when I was looking in wikipedia about "liberal-libertarians" or "democratic-libertarians" it talked about this type of tax on land and natural resources.

    I said to myself that I supported that tax because about how natural resources are in limited suppply forever (when things like wealth or population) can grow expodentially.
    A key plank to Georgism is the reduction or removal of most or all other taxes, which must not be forgotten. It is not just another tax. In general I'm suspicious of the more simplistic plans that seem to offer a few simple but often radical changes as the salvation of society but George's(and Thomas Paine's, Jefferson's and all the others who have echoed George's ideas on land.) one, in moderation at least, makes excellent argument, imho.


    I agree with that tax that you were talking about, but I just see problems with it from people originally buying land from the government at one point. I just believe if you tax land after someone purchases it, then that isn't really buying that land, only renting it. That relates to my distaste of taxes on property.
    Well it is there many ways you could set up the tax, including only when land is sold or rented. The only thing to be taxed is the site and ground rent, all the rest is not included and the exemptions can be othered, most obviously for average size residential properties. Also I personally advocate it being collected locally, so as to make it a community or regional collection thing and not one by enforced by a centralised state.
    "It is written in the eternal constitution that men of intemperate minds cannot be free. Their passions forge their fetters." - Edmund Burke

  7. #57
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    Re: The Fair Tax

    Quote Originally Posted by Wessexman View Post
    A key plank to Georgism is the reduction or removal of most or all other taxes, which must not be forgotten. It is not just another tax. In general I'm suspicious of the more simplistic plans that seem to offer a few simple but often radical changes as the salvation of society but George's(and Thomas Paine's, Jefferson's and all the others who have echoed George's ideas on land.) one, in moderation at least, makes excellent argument, imho.


    Well it is there many ways you could set up the tax, including only when land is sold or rented. The only thing to be taxed is the site and ground rent, all the rest is not included and the exemptions can be othered, most obviously for average size residential properties. Also I personally advocate it being collected locally, so as to make it a community or regional collection thing and not one by enforced by a centralised state.
    Right now, my position has changed from just supporting a sales tax for all revenue and now also having a land value tax. So I still believe something different then the "geoists."


    I found some interesting links

    Foldvary: Geoism and Libertarianism

    Any libertarians should read this, and it really connects a tax on land as the best possible choice of taxation.


    [ame=http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Geolibertarianism]Geolibertarianism - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia[/ame]
    [ame=http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Georgism]Georgism - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia[/ame]

    or for more economic info

    http://www.wealthandwant.com/pdf/Bat...tic_Supply.pdf

  8. #58
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    Re: The Fair Tax

    Quote Originally Posted by nerv14 View Post
    Right now, my position has changed from just supporting a sales tax for all revenue and now also having a land value tax. So I still believe something different then the "geoists."
    One critique of the LVT is that it couldn't provide all the revenue that a modern state requires. Obviously this is more from a liberal than small-gov't perspective and it does not take into account the fact that of all taxes the LVT is likely to have some quite positive effects on the economy and society, probably reducing the need for gov't spending by a modest but not insignificant amount.

    But still I agree it is unlikely to provide all revenue needs at least for the short-term, what I advise is reducing or removing most taxes and implementing a LVT and perhaps tarrifs, not really as protectionism but with the view that if you have to tax sale you might as well start with these. Then yes I'd consider a Sales tax if need be.

    I found some interesting links

    Foldvary: Geoism and Libertarianism

    Any libertarians should read this, and it really connects a tax on land as the best possible choice of taxation.


    Geolibertarianism - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
    Georgism - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

    or for more economic info

    http://www.wealthandwant.com/pdf/Bat...tic_Supply.pdf
    Henry George's Progress and Poverty is worth a read, although it is not easy reading, there are some more modern updates by various authors which might be the best place to start bookwise.

    You know I rarely win someone over like you seem to have been. I hope you enjoy your searchings in Georgism.
    "It is written in the eternal constitution that men of intemperate minds cannot be free. Their passions forge their fetters." - Edmund Burke

  9. #59
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    Re: The Fair Tax is a Fraud

    Quote Originally Posted by tlmorg02 View Post

    Like Goshin, I support it in theory, unless the rate is Outrageous.
    Alas.
    The Real Rate IS Outrageous.

    Independent scorings put it in the Mid 50s% Range.
    Not including you have to add in State Sales taxes averaging 6%.. and convert state Income Taxes to Sales taxes too to make the thing worth doing.
    So we're talking in the Mid-60s% Range at least.

    And many don't know even to achieve their Lying rate of "23% inclusive" (which is 30% the way you and I know a Sales tax is calculated now), they Tax EVERYTHING.

    Government buys a Jet, Tank? 30%

    Unlike State Taxes... Little things like New HOUSES are Taxed.

    How about Taxing RENT 30%-60%? Yes RENT is taxed.
    Anyone live in NY, Boston, SF, LA, gonna afford that?
    Who's going to be able to save for a taxed House if they get Creamed on Rent?

    Prescriptions, Health Insurance, (car insurance etc) Medical procedures.
    Yup Heart/Kidney Transplant-- Whammo.

    FOOD.

    Everything.



    And I know who'll pay less.
    Buffett, Eisner, Head of Goldman Sachs, etc who now pay a 35% tax on Income (and 15-35% on Short gains, Capital Gains, Dividends, Estate, etc).
    ALL Gone.

    The very wealthy, now only have to pay 23/30% on what they spend.. which is a hell of alot less than 35% on what they make!

    In fact (and Obviously) the more you make the lower the Percent of your income you spend to live.

    So since Fairtax claims to be "Revenue Neutral".. and the Rich Definitely pay less... WHO Pays more?


    Fairtax is complete Fraud and a Joke of one too.
    Unsurprisingly created by 2 Texas Billionaires.
    By the math.. not even a serious proposal and would never get past hearings that would destroy it.

    Extra - WSJ.com



    "....The distinction is confusing, but think of it this way. If a product costs $1 at retail, the FairTax adds 30%, for a total of $1.30.
    Since the 30-cent tax is 23% of $1.30, FairTax supporters say the rate is 23% rather than 30%.

    This is only the beginning of the Deceptions in the FairTax...."


    ".....A 2000 estimate by Congress's Joint Committee on Taxation found the tax-inclusive rate would have to be 36% and the tax-exclusive rate would be 57%.

    In 2005, the U.S. Treasury Department calculated that a tax-exclusive rate of 34% would be needed just to replace the income tax, leaving the payroll tax in place. But if evasion were high then the rate might have to rise to 49%. If the FairTax were only able to cover the limited sales tax base of a typical state, then a rate of 64% would be required (89% with high evasion).

    I've emphasized problems with the FairTax rate because public opinion polls have long shown that support for flat-rate tax reforms is extremely sensitive to the proposed rate, with support dropping off sharply at a rate higher than 23%...."
    And of course, evasion would go through the Roof forcing the rate yet higher, IMO, more like 100% all told (Fed, State/local sales/income, etc)

    Everyone goes cash and barter- the economy goes underground to avoid this HUGE tax.

    An incentive for Evasion approaching that of Drug Profits.
    -
    Last edited by mbig; 05-29-09 at 10:42 PM.

  10. #60
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    Re: The Fair Tax is a Fraud

    Quote Originally Posted by mbig View Post
    Alas.
    The Real Rate IS Outrageous.

    Independent scorings put it in the Mid 50s% Range.
    Not including you have to add in State Sales taxes averaging 6%.. and convert state Income Taxes to Sales taxes too to make the thing worth doing.
    So we're talking in the Mid-60s% Range at least.

    And many don't know even to achieve their Lying rate of "23% inclusive" (which is 30% the way you and I know a Sales tax is calculated now), they Tax EVERYTHING.

    Government buys a Jet, Tank? 30%

    Unlike State Taxes... Little things like New HOUSES are Taxed.

    How about Taxing RENT 30%-60%? Yes RENT is taxed.
    Anyone live in NY, Boston, SF, LA, gonna afford that?
    Who's going to be able to save for a taxed House if they get Creamed on Rent?

    Prescriptions, Health Insurance, (car insurance etc) Medical procedures.
    Yup Heart/Kidney Transplant-- Whammo.

    FOOD.

    Everything.



    And I know who'll pay less.
    Buffett, Eisner, Head of Goldman Sachs, etc who now pay a 35% tax on Income (and 15-35% on Short gains, Capital Gains, Dividends, Estate, etc).
    ALL Gone.

    The very wealthy, now only have to pay 23/30% on what they spend.. which is a hell of alot less than 35% on what they make!

    In fact (and Obviously) the more you make the lower the Percent of your income you spend to live.

    So since Fairtax claims to be "Revenue Neutral".. and the Rich Definitely pay less... WHO Pays more?


    Fairtax is complete Fraud and a Joke of one too.
    Unsurprisingly created by 2 Texas Billionaires.
    By the math.. not even a serious proposal and would never get past hearings that would destroy it.

    Extra - WSJ.com



    And of course, evasion would go through the Roof forcing the rate yet higher, IMO, more like 100% all told (Fed, State/local sales/income, etc)

    Everyone goes cash and barter- the economy goes underground to avoid this HUGE tax.

    An incentive for Evasion approaching that of Drug Profits.
    -

    So it would have to be tax inclusive... that means EVERYTHING is taxed. This includes food and medicine. So its 36% then.

    And you are missing the large amounts of tax evasion that occurs under the income tax. The income tax is collected for each person that works, while the sales tax is only collected at the sellers of products. This would significantly make it easier for the taxes to be collected.

    and I don't have the source, but something like 75% or higher of all goods that would be taxed with a national sales tax are purchased from very large companies. And those companies would not risk trying to evade sales taxes.


    Also, to be practical with a plan in the short run, I can at least imagine that medicare and SS are taxed from income and the rest of the federal budget can be taxed on sales tax (or even in combination with land taxes).

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