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  • Yes, I think we can discuss abortion without rancor

    14 40.00%
  • No, I think the issue is too divisive

    10 28.57%
  • I think we can do better, but it will always be an angry debate

    11 31.43%
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Thread: Is President Obama Right in This?

  1. #81
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    Re: Is President Obama Right in This?

    Quote Originally Posted by Psychoclown View Post
    I can wrap my brain around the argument that aborting a child is no different than removing a cyst or getting a hair cut. That argument is based on the idea that thing being removed is not human and therefor has no value or protection by law. There for, just as no one has a right to dictate to a woman how she cuts her hair or clips her toenails, no one has the right to say what she can or can't do with this non-human lump of cells in her. I can understand that. I can wrap my brain around it. I disagree with it completely, but it makes internal sense to me.

    When you add personal opposition to abortion, that's when I can't wrap my brain around it. You recognize that the thing being removed in much more than toenails or cysts. You're uncomfortable with killing it. But you refuse to protect it. To me if someone has a personal moral objection to abortion, its most likely because they believe it ends a human life. And I can't understand how they believe that should fall into choice.

    I understand you don't believe it ends a human life. You call it potential human. But I don't understand and can't wrap my brain around how you make that distinction. Obviously as I said, you don't have problems with eggs and sperms being destroyed - no one does. But they are potential huamns. Its only after conception that discomfort sets in for you and for many folks. My personal interpretation has been that most people recognize that at that point we're no longer talking about a lump of genetic material. We're now talking about that sacred spark of human life.

    I appreciate the discussion. And I do always try to examine the otherside. But there are a few positions I just fail to understand. Pro-choice mixed with personal discomfort or opposition to abortion is one of those positions I don't think I'll ever be able to fully comprehend.
    Granted, but you say that you are against abortion, yet you responded to me that if the mother were in danger of dying you are not opposed. How is this different from those who say it should remain a limited choice?

  2. #82
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    Re: Is President Obama Right in This?

    Quote Originally Posted by tlmorg02 View Post
    Granted, but you say that you are against abortion, yet you responded to me that if the mother were in danger of dying you are not opposed. How is this different from those who say it should remain a limited choice?
    A miscarriage that ends the mother's life invariably ends the baby's life, also. Hence there's no point in opposing termination, and something to gain by intervening.

    Not hard to figure out, is it? Naturally, such circumstances should be documented and reviewed to ensure proper safeguards were followed. We wouldn't want so-called doctors faking up medical trauma just to murder babies, would we?

  3. #83
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    Re: Is President Obama Right in This?

    Because in the case of the mother's life being in danger, we're now talking about balancing two individual's right ot life. In that case, mom is sentient so she gets to make the call.

    Abortions without the mother's life being endangered are about the woman's right to choose vs the child's right to life. Life takes precedence as it is the most critical and fundemental of rights.
    Slipping into madness is good for the sake of comparison - Unknown.

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    Re: Is President Obama Right in This?

    Quote Originally Posted by tlmorg02 View Post
    Here is your evidence: Cell Cycle in the Fucus Zygote Parallels a Somatic Cell Cycle but Displays a Unique Translational Regulation of Cyclin-Dependent Kinases

    If you have any questions, just ask.

    It is not about a child being born, it is about whether or not a fetus takes over and supercedes the rights of the mother. Is the mother nothing more than a vessel and when she becomes one does all of her personal rights disappear for those of the fetus?
    You're right. It's not about a child being born. It's about killing a child to stop it from being born. Of course the fetus' right to life supercedes the non-existent right of the incubator to kill it.

    She still has the right to free speech, to keep and bear arms, to be secure in her property and person, to have a trial by jury, etc etc etc. Since she does not have a right to commit murder, she cannot murder the unique individual inside her.

  5. #85
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    Re: Is President Obama Right in This?

    Quote Originally Posted by Scarecrow Akhbar View Post
    A miscarriage that ends the mother's life invariably ends the baby's life, also. Hence there's no point in opposing termination, and something to gain by intervening.

    Not hard to figure out, is it? Naturally, such circumstances should be documented and reviewed to ensure proper safeguards were followed. We wouldn't want so-called doctors faking up medical trauma just to murder babies, would we?
    What miscarriage? A woman may be too physically weak to give birth, weak heart.....number of reasons. The baby can be birthed without the mother surviving. This has happened numerous times. The question was if the baby lives and mother dies, do you allow the abortion.

  6. #86
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    Re: Is President Obama Right in This?

    Quote Originally Posted by Scarecrow Akhbar View Post
    You're right. It's not about a child being born. It's about killing a child to stop it from being born. Of course the fetus' right to life supercedes the non-existent right of the incubator to kill it.

    She still has the right to free speech, to keep and bear arms, to be secure in her property and person, to have a trial by jury, etc etc etc. Since she does not have a right to commit murder, she cannot murder the unique individual inside her.
    So, is it then wrong to remove a vegetative person from life-support? Do not say it is different, because the mother is nothing more than life-support until the child is developed enough to live outside the body. Either human life is sacred and untouchable or it is not. If you pick and choose where the sanctity begins an ends then you cannot used the sanctity of life as your basis.

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    Re: Is President Obama Right in This?

    Quote Originally Posted by Psychoclown View Post
    I appreciate the discussion. And I do always try to examine the otherside. But there are a few positions I just fail to understand. Pro-choice mixed with personal discomfort or opposition to abortion is one of those positions I don't think I'll ever be able to fully comprehend.
    I understand that you don't understand how the thought process on my side works. I have enjoyed the conversation alot, and appreciate your input and explanations.

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    Re: Is President Obama Right in This?

    Quote Originally Posted by Redress View Post
    I understand that you don't understand how the thought process on my side works. I have enjoyed the conversation alot, and appreciate your input and explanations.
    Likewise. I enjoyed it too. We'll probably never agree on the issue, but it was nice to see a discussion on the issue that didn't devolve down to people shouting, "Baby killer!" and "Misogynist!" at each other.
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    Re: Is President Obama Right in This?

    So maybe there is hope.

  10. #90
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    Re: Is President Obama Right in This?

    Quote Originally Posted by Scarecrow Akhbar View Post
    I can.

    A woman that don't want to be pregant has the freedom to choose to abstain from sexual acts that permit the egg to become thoroughly acquainted with a sperm.

    If they mess up, it's not the baby's fault, it's theirs.

    It's not rocket science.

    Abortion kills a living human.


    It's funny to see people's definition of life.

    Abstinence is a great thought, but in practice.. doesn't really work all that well.. read up the studies on Bush's abstinence programs in public school.

    I don't agree with late term abortions of an ACTUAL baby. (10 fingers, 10 toes, penis, or vagina) kind of thing.

    The removal of a clump of cells that are dividing in some woman's womb... well... not so much the same as the cute cuddly little baby that comes out of a woman's birth canal...

    Sorry, but those of us that look at this problem logically will never see a bunch of cells dividing as a human baby. Just not going to happen.


    Continue on though, it's funny watching you guys say... "IT IS TOO A LIFE!!!" and others say "IS NOT!!!" I feel like we're all accomplishing so much on this one.
    George Washington didn't use his freedom of speech to win the war with Britain... He shot them.

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