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  • Yes, I think we can discuss abortion without rancor

    14 40.00%
  • No, I think the issue is too divisive

    10 28.57%
  • I think we can do better, but it will always be an angry debate

    11 31.43%
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Thread: Is President Obama Right in This?

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    Re: Is President Obama Right in This?

    Quote Originally Posted by Psychoclown View Post
    In the case of a mother's life being endangered by the pregnancy, I would definately support the option of abortion. I don't know if I've ever met a pro-life advocate that would disagree with that provision.
    Nope, me neither, though I'd never bet they don't exist. It's clear that real issues involving life and death do have a risk of happening during pregnancy.

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    Re: Is President Obama Right in This?

    If a human life does not begin at conception, when does it begin? What is the precise moment in the pregnancy that the fetus is endowed with humanity? What proof have we of that endowment?

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    Re: Is President Obama Right in This?

    I agree that is the fundemental difference.

    However, the way I interpret your admitted discomfort with abortion even before the threshold of you believe is human life, is that you're not all sure the threshold you set is correct. If you truly believe (as some do) that before Point A a unborn child is not a human, then there should be no discomfort with abortion. As I said, that's why I can respect the logically consistent position that an unborn child is not anymore human than toenail clippings. It makes sense. I find it repugnant, but its internally consistent.

    Saying, its not a human before this point, but I still feel a little uncomfortable killing it. I have to ask, why? It seems to me that you are not at all sure the threshold you've set is accurate. You even admit a child before that threshold is still somehow special - above objects and animals, even if you stop short of calling it human life. Pro-lifers on the other hand, don't have to worry about if our threshold protect all human life. The threshold of conception is a pretty safe bet. Maybe its too early. I agree that the debate of when human life begins is murky, mired in personal ethics, religious beliefs, and philosophies to go along with scientific knowledge and will probably never be resolved. That said, I feel very comfortable with the threshold I believe should be established. When it comes to protecting the most fundemental right of life, I rather err on the side of caution.
    Slipping into madness is good for the sake of comparison - Unknown.

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    Re: Is President Obama Right in This?

    Quote Originally Posted by Scarecrow Akhbar View Post
    You've managed to convince yourself that a human fetus is no different than a skin cell.

    Good for you.

    Now back it up with science.



    Oh. I see you can't back it up, so you're resorting to nonsense.



    Non sequitur.



    Certainly. Once they come up with a genetic test to find future Democrats, we should permit abortions of those babies, right?



    OH, MY GOD RAPE!!!!!!!!!!

    Of course, in the minds of people who want as many abortions as possible to happen, there's no moral issues with destroying a person that didn't exist when the crime was committed, even though the maximum sentence for a rapist is some time in prison, but what the hell, murder the baby, it's his fault.

    (Does that response resonate with your frantic emotional state over the thought that a baby might be born somewhere?)

    Here is your evidence: Cell Cycle in the Fucus Zygote Parallels a Somatic Cell Cycle but Displays a Unique Translational Regulation of Cyclin-Dependent Kinases

    If you have any questions, just ask.

    It is not about a child being born, it is about whether or not a fetus takes over and supercedes the rights of the mother. Is the mother nothing more than a vessel and when she becomes one does all of her personal rights disappear for those of the fetus?

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    Re: Is President Obama Right in This?

    Quote Originally Posted by Psychoclown View Post
    I agree that is the fundemental difference.

    However, the way I interpret your admitted discomfort with abortion even before the threshold of you believe is human life, is that you're not all sure the threshold you set is correct. If you truly believe (as some do) that before Point A a unborn child is not a human, then there should be no discomfort with abortion. As I said, that's why I can respect the logically consistent position that an unborn child is not anymore human than toenail clippings. It makes sense. I find it repugnant, but its internally consistent.

    Saying, its not a human before this point, but I still feel a little uncomfortable killing it. I have to ask, why? It seems to me that you are not at all sure the threshold you've set is accurate. You even admit a child before that threshold is still somehow special - above objects and animals, even if you stop short of calling it human life. Pro-lifers on the other hand, don't have to worry about if our threshold protect all human life. The threshold of conception is a pretty safe bet. Maybe its too early. I agree that the debate of when human life begins is murky, mired in personal ethics, religious beliefs, and philosophies to go along with scientific knowledge and will probably never be resolved. That said, I feel very comfortable with the threshold I believe should be established. When it comes to protecting the most fundemental right of life, I rather err on the side of caution.
    We are getting closer. The discomfort comes not from a question about where the point lies, but in the removal of the potential for a human.

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    Re: Is President Obama Right in This?

    Quote Originally Posted by celticlord View Post
    If a human life does not begin at conception, when does it begin? What is the precise moment in the pregnancy that the fetus is endowed with humanity? What proof have we of that endowment?
    All of the cells of the human body are alive. The sperm is alive and the egg is alive. The question is at which point is it a unique, independent human life. And to me, that point is where the child can live outside of the womb. This, in most instances is after the first trimester, though the child will still require an incubator. This parallels an injured person in a vegetative state. They are alive with the use of machinery, yet on their own dead. The mother serves as the machinery maintaining the life of the baby until the second trimester. At this point the nerve system begins to develop in earnest and real development occurs. The lungs of babies do not even begin to develop until month seven, as there is not adequate room in the womb until the point prior to delivery. However, with medical assistance the child can survive quite easily at this point.

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    Re: Is President Obama Right in This?

    Sperm or unfertilized eggs are potential human, but no one is laments over their regular destruction. No one puts those above animals or objects. After conception it becomes different. I guess this state of "potential human worthy of discomfort over their death, but unworthy of legal protection" doesn't exist for me and I just can't wrap my brain around it. Unless you can somehow explain it to me, we'll have to agree to disagree.
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    Re: Is President Obama Right in This?

    Quote Originally Posted by Psychoclown View Post
    Sperm or unfertilized eggs are potential human, but no one is laments over their regular destruction. No one puts those above animals or objects. After conception it becomes different. I guess this state of "potential human worthy of discomfort over their death, but unworthy of legal protection" doesn't exist for me and I just can't wrap my brain around it. Unless you can somehow explain it to me, we'll have to agree to disagree.
    The sperm and unfertilized eggs are carrying it to an extreme.

    AS far as the can't wrap your brain around it thing...earlier in this thread some one pointed something out that I in a way that finally let me wrap my brain around the anti abortion concept and why you all are so not open to compromise(not that we are either). It just never really sank in that if abortion is essentially murder, there is no compromise position. it seems self evident once you think about it, but it is incredibly hard to step away from the way we see the world, to see it as some one else does.

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    Re: Is President Obama Right in This?

    Quote Originally Posted by Psychoclown View Post
    Sperm or unfertilized eggs are potential human, but no one is laments over their regular destruction. No one puts those above animals or objects. After conception it becomes different. I guess this state of "potential human worthy of discomfort over their death, but unworthy of legal protection" doesn't exist for me and I just can't wrap my brain around it. Unless you can somehow explain it to me, we'll have to agree to disagree.
    Why is different after conception? All conception is essentially, is the introduction of DNA from the male, to the female. There is recombination and cell differentiation. If one were to take a female egg and add another set of DNA, you could grow a frog or lamb for that matter. One could add the DNA of a heart cell, and the egg would divide and become two heart cells and so on. It is at the point that the cells differentiate to the point where they grouped and programed to become heart, brain, and so on that we actually see true human life. Now this is scientifically speaking. If one simply compares the development of anyother animal and the human, you will see that at certain stages it is near impossible to tell the difference between a chicken and human baby. Regardless, I am not trying to change your mind, it is much more enjoyable with your differing opinion. Thus, I agree to disagree.

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    Re: Is President Obama Right in This?

    Quote Originally Posted by Redress View Post
    The sperm and unfertilized eggs are carrying it to an extreme.

    AS far as the can't wrap your brain around it thing...earlier in this thread some one pointed something out that I in a way that finally let me wrap my brain around the anti abortion concept and why you all are so not open to compromise(not that we are either). It just never really sank in that if abortion is essentially murder, there is no compromise position. it seems self evident once you think about it, but it is incredibly hard to step away from the way we see the world, to see it as some one else does.
    I can wrap my brain around the argument that aborting a child is no different than removing a cyst or getting a hair cut. That argument is based on the idea that thing being removed is not human and therefor has no value or protection by law. There for, just as no one has a right to dictate to a woman how she cuts her hair or clips her toenails, no one has the right to say what she can or can't do with this non-human lump of cells in her. I can understand that. I can wrap my brain around it. I disagree with it completely, but it makes internal sense to me.

    When you add personal opposition to abortion, that's when I can't wrap my brain around it. You recognize that the thing being removed in much more than toenails or cysts. You're uncomfortable with killing it. But you refuse to protect it. To me if someone has a personal moral objection to abortion, its most likely because they believe it ends a human life. And I can't understand how they believe that should fall into choice.

    I understand you don't believe it ends a human life. You call it potential human. But I don't understand and can't wrap my brain around how you make that distinction. Obviously as I said, you don't have problems with eggs and sperms being destroyed - no one does. But they are potential huamns. Its only after conception that discomfort sets in for you and for many folks. My personal interpretation has been that most people recognize that at that point we're no longer talking about a lump of genetic material. We're now talking about that sacred spark of human life.

    I appreciate the discussion. And I do always try to examine the otherside. But there are a few positions I just fail to understand. Pro-choice mixed with personal discomfort or opposition to abortion is one of those positions I don't think I'll ever be able to fully comprehend.
    Slipping into madness is good for the sake of comparison - Unknown.

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