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  • Yes, I think we can discuss abortion without rancor

    14 40.00%
  • No, I think the issue is too divisive

    10 28.57%
  • I think we can do better, but it will always be an angry debate

    11 31.43%
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Thread: Is President Obama Right in This?

  1. #51
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    Re: Is President Obama Right in This?

    Again, I understand what you are saying, and a large part of me agrees. However, just looking at the debate here on this board, some very reasonable people get very hard line on this one issue. I believe this stems from the way each side frames the debate to themselves.

  2. #52
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    Re: Is President Obama Right in This?

    Quote Originally Posted by Redress View Post
    Again, I understand what you are saying, and a large part of me agrees. However, just looking at the debate here on this board, some very reasonable people get very hard line on this one issue. I believe this stems from the way each side frames the debate to themselves.
    And that is very true. It reminds me much of the Intelligent Design VS. Evolution debate. One side is focusing on beliefs as hard facts and the other is using scientific fact and theory. You can not really find much middle ground, as how does one argue against religious beliefs. The only way I have been able to do so is by utilizing the same text as those I am debating. By doing so it at least puts you on the same playing field. I cannot say such a case is possible with abortion, but unless you can find another way to frame the question, then I agree with your cynism on the subject for MOST people.

  3. #53
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    Re: Is President Obama Right in This?

    Quote Originally Posted by tlmorg02 View Post
    And that is very true. It reminds me much of the Intelligent Design VS. Evolution debate. One side is focusing on beliefs as hard facts and the other is using scientific fact and theory. You can not really find much middle ground, as how does one argue against religious beliefs. The only way I have been able to do so is by utilizing the same text as those I am debating. By doing so it at least puts you on the same playing field. I cannot say such a case is possible with abortion, but unless you can find another way to frame the question, then I agree with your cynism on the subject for MOST people.
    I think you are misunderstanding the evolution side on this one. Hardly any one argues that intelligent design could not be the case, rather that intelligent design is not science, as it cannot be disproven.

    But that is an entirely different subject, so we probably should leave it alone in this thread please.

  4. #54
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    Re: Is President Obama Right in This?

    Quote Originally Posted by Redress View Post
    I think you are misunderstanding the evolution side on this one. Hardly any one argues that intelligent design could not be the case, rather that intelligent design is not science, as it cannot be disproven.

    But that is an entirely different subject, so we probably should leave it alone in this thread please.
    No, I realize that and meant the argument over whether it should be taught side-by-side. But you are correct, it is for another thread.

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    Re: Is President Obama Right in This?

    Quote Originally Posted by tlmorg02 View Post
    And that is very true. It reminds me much of the Intelligent Design VS. Evolution debate. One side is focusing on beliefs as hard facts and the other is using scientific fact and theory. You can not really find much middle ground, as how does one argue against religious beliefs. The only way I have been able to do so is by utilizing the same text as those I am debating. By doing so it at least puts you on the same playing field. I cannot say such a case is possible with abortion, but unless you can find another way to frame the question, then I agree with your cynism on the subject for MOST people.
    Interesting.

    I'm very much anti-baby-murder, and I use nothing but science and cold facts to support my position.

    Ergo, you must mean the pro-baby-murder people are arguing from a position of religious belief and emotion.

    I've always known this to be true. No one can be a socialist without having most of their screws loose.

  6. #56
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    Re: Is President Obama Right in This?

    Quote Originally Posted by Scarecrow Akhbar View Post
    Interesting.

    I'm very much anti-baby-murder, and I use nothing but science and cold facts to support my position.

    Ergo, you must mean the pro-baby-murder people are arguing from a position of religious belief and emotion.

    I've always known this to be true. No one can be a socialist without having most of their screws loose.
    Enlighten me to the scientific facts that lead you to be anti-abortion.

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    Re: Is President Obama Right in This?

    Quote Originally Posted by Scarecrow Akhbar View Post
    Interesting.

    I'm very much anti-baby-murder, and I use nothing but science and cold facts to support my position.

    Ergo, you must mean the pro-baby-murder people are arguing from a position of religious belief and emotion.

    I've always known this to be true. No one can be a socialist without having most of their screws loose.
    Oh, I am not a socialist, but nice try at fighting an argument with labels.

  8. #58
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    Re: Is President Obama Right in This?

    Quote Originally Posted by Scarecrow Akhbar View Post
    No. Can't be done.

    The Left refuses to admit that abortion is the wilful destruction of human life.

    Until they can face the facts of the matter, they will continue to respond to the issue with the hatred and vituperation they expend on all their issues.
    And this is a typical "Right" response.
    Man is simply not civilized enough, and by the time he is, there will be no abortion question to debate...

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    Re: Is President Obama Right in This?

    I'd say no, and this thread is proof of it. People can't even civilly discuss the topic of discussing abortion civilly. Its the reason I tend to avoid abortion threads (with a few notable exceptions).

    Both sides have deeply held views that are not only in stark opposition to each other, but they both view the other side's position as deeply wrong. Naturally, there is little chance for productive debate in such a setting.

    One thing I never understood is why abortion is called a religious topic. Yes, a vast majority of pro-lifers are religious, but its hardly a prerequisite. I've met several athiests/agnostics who are strongly pro-life. The view that killing a unborn child is wrong is hardly limited to those that believe in religion. There is nothing inherently religious about the argument that an unborn child is human and therefor deserves to have its life protected by the law just like the rest of us.

    I think the reason the pro-life movement is largely made up of religious folks is that they are more comfortable speaking in moral absolutes. Many folks are convinced everything needs to be shades of grey. And sometimes things are, but sometimes they are not. I don't know if any polls back me up on this, but I believe most Americans are personally against abortion. Afterall the standard pro-choice candidate's position is to declare their personal dislike or opposition to abortion, but their desire to preserve choice. I've always wanted to ask them why they personally wouldn't choose abortion. If the answer is that they believe it ends a human life (which is what I suspect it is), then isn't the only correct stance then to oppose the ending of a innocent human life? For those that believe abortion is no big deal, no different than clipping your toenails or having a cyst removed or whatever, I can respect that. I disagree strongly, but its a logically consistent position. But those that try to have it both ways, I just don't get that.
    Slipping into madness is good for the sake of comparison - Unknown.

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    Re: Is President Obama Right in This?

    Quote Originally Posted by tlmorg02 View Post
    Enlighten me to the scientific facts that lead you to be anti-abortion.
    You mean besides the obvious fact that life begins at conception?

    Then there's the obvious fact that we're discussing a human life.

    Gee, not too complicated is it?

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