View Poll Results: Read the below and respond acordingly

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  • Yes, I think we can discuss abortion without rancor

    14 40.00%
  • No, I think the issue is too divisive

    10 28.57%
  • I think we can do better, but it will always be an angry debate

    11 31.43%
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Thread: Is President Obama Right in This?

  1. #31
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    Re: Is President Obama Right in This?

    Quote Originally Posted by Hatuey View Post
    No it's not. Please stop with the non-sequiturs?
    You have only to answer the questions I posed. No more than this.

  2. #32
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    Re: Is President Obama Right in This?

    Quote Originally Posted by Hatuey View Post
    States rights is such a load of bull**** it's almost funny when people bring it up like denying an individual the right to carry out a private matter should be left up to state governments and not the federal one.
    Of course it should unless it is specifically given directly to the feds. That is the only way a federal constitution can work without becoming mere guidelines and endangering the necessary autonomy of the states. If the people don't like their abortion rules they should take it up with their states.

    This just proves the point of people like Alexis De Tocqueville and Robert Nisbet who talked about how atomistic individualism and more libertine individual rights can sometimes be combined with aggressive statism of centralised nation states. In fact sometimes they build on each other.

    I also noticed you did not respond to where I called you on referring to Catholics as fundamentalism which is a position that shows a great deal of ignorance on these issues.
    "It is written in the eternal constitution that men of intemperate minds cannot be free. Their passions forge their fetters." - Edmund Burke

  3. #33
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    Re: Is President Obama Right in This?

    Your question and phrasing are commendable.

    While I prefer that debates on serious topics should always take place with respect on both sides, I don't know if that is a reasonable expectation in this case.

    The reason for that is that anti-abortionists such as myself are forced to see the opposition as condoning and in many cases committing wholesale murder of innocents.

    For many of us, a discussion with our opponents in this matter is a situation analogous to the event in which Heinrich Himmler, late in the second world war, had a meeting with a Jewish diplomat about the fate of European Jewry.

    On almost any other topic, I find that I can at least consider some mode compromise. But how does one condone an acceptable level of murder?

    I doubt that there is going to be peace between these two sides in this affair. One side must emerge with overwhelming victory and a certain popular mandate to establish a standard.
    Quod scripsi, scripsi

  4. #34
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    Re: Is President Obama Right in This?

    Quote Originally Posted by Oftencold View Post
    Your question and phrasing are commendable.

    While I prefer that debates on serious topics should always take place with respect on both sides, I don't know if that is a reasonable expectation in this case.

    The reason for that is that anti-abortionists such as myself are forced to see the opposition as condoning and in many cases committing wholesale murder of innocents.

    For many of us, a discussion with our opponents in this matter is a situation analogous to the event in which Heinrich Himmler, late in the second world war, had a meeting with a Jewish diplomat about the fate of European Jewry.

    On almost any other topic, I find that I can at least consider some mode compromise. But how does one condone an acceptable level of murder?

    I doubt that there is going to be peace between these two sides in this affair. One side must emerge with overwhelming victory and a certain popular mandate to establish a standard.
    Thank you, that was a way I had never seen the debate explained, if you follow what I say. It can be hard at times to understand why the other side in a debate is the way they are. That really illuminated something that had never sunk in to me.

  5. #35
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    Re: Is President Obama Right in This?

    Quote Originally Posted by Hatuey View Post
    . . . .
    He is and he isn't. As long as the majority of people behind the pro-life movements are Fundamentalist Christians then this will never be argued civilly. They simply do not care about people who do not follow their religious beliefs. . . .
    Ah! I must inform the Pastor that we need to start imposing strict controls on our charitable activities, to insure that our resources are only expended upon people who follow our religious beliefs, since of course we don't care about the rest.

    And how odd of us that we as Christians are so stalwart in our support of the State of Israel, since it is primarily populated by people of a faith other than our own.

    And when we pray for the relief of the suffering of persons in far off lands who have suffered catastrophes almost incomprehensible to us, we probably should remember to insert a disclaimer asking that all Divine Intercession be expended solely upon those survivors who are of our own faith.

    Finally, in the matter before us, is it to be assumed the Christians are to be concerned only with abortions performed upon other Christians, or used to destroy the Unborn that would likely grow into new Christians?

    Forgive me if I question the previous posters willingness to observe the world around him in lucidity, or to meditate upon what he observes rationally.
    Last edited by Oftencold; 05-18-09 at 11:07 PM.
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  6. #36
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    Re: Is President Obama Right in This?

    Quote Originally Posted by Redress View Post
    I suppose I should add that I agree with you guys mostly so far. I just cannot see this topic being debated in a civil manner. The moral and civil rights aspects run too strong for people to moderate their emotional response. It's too bad, because that is the very reason I and I suspect many others avoid any discussion of the topic. The arguments are going to get unpleasant, and I just don't want to take part in that level of unpleasantness, especially for an issue I have some moral ambiguity on.
    Part of what makes the debate so acrimonious, is that it is largely an either/or proposition.

    To compare. If I was adamantly in favor of some version of slavery, and you were just as committed to abolishing that institution, we might still find common ground in at least improving the living and working conditions of slaves.

    But the practice of elective abortion allows for little in the way "middle ground."
    Last edited by Oftencold; 05-18-09 at 11:16 PM.
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    Re: Is President Obama Right in This?

    Quote Originally Posted by Oftencold View Post
    Part of what makes the debate so acrimonious, is that it is largely a n either/or proposition.

    To compare. If I was adamantly in favor of some version of slavery, and you were just as committed to abolishing that institution, we might still find common ground in at least improving the living and working conditions of slaves.

    But the practice of elective abortion allows for little in the way "middle ground."
    I think you where actually closer in your other post. Your side sees abortion as murder of innocents, while my side sees abortion rights as a personal freedom that the government should not intrude on. These are both strong positions and things we take as very very serious.

    To give you an example from my side of the debate on abortion. I think of it as analogous of gun rights. Gun rights people get very emotional about the issue because we/they(I am not really a big gun rights person, so more "they" than "we") see it as representing a basic personal right. We think of abortion rights in that same light. When the government intrudes on basic personal rights, we get very bent out of shape.

    Does that make sense?

  8. #38
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    Re: Is President Obama Right in This?

    Quote Originally Posted by Redress View Post
    I think you where actually closer in your other post. Your side sees abortion as murder of innocents, while my side sees abortion rights as a personal freedom that the government should not intrude on. These are both strong positions and things we take as very very serious.

    To give you an example from my side of the debate on abortion. I think of it as analogous of gun rights. Gun rights people get very emotional about the issue because we/they(I am not really a big gun rights person, so more "they" than "we") see it as representing a basic personal right. We think of abortion rights in that same light. When the government intrudes on basic personal rights, we get very bent out of shape.

    Does that make sense?
    You certainly make sense.

    I wish I knew of a way for there to be compromise in this matter. But I can see none.
    Quod scripsi, scripsi

  9. #39
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    Re: Is President Obama Right in This?

    Quote Originally Posted by Redress View Post
    Is there a real chance that we can debate abortion without seeing the other side as villains? Can we debate the topic without emotions overwhelming respect for those who disagree with us?
    I say no. If you are genuinely pro-life when it comes to abortion,that means you see the "fetus" as a living human being deserving of life then you do not want a compromise. You want the abominable act of abortion outlawed and perhaps offenders treated no different than someone who kills a baby outside the womb. If you are genuinely pro-abortion then you see the "fetus" as a toenail or some other appendage of the body that should be discarded on the whims of the mother and that the pro-life crowd is making a big deal out of nothing. Any compromise means caving to the other side's demands. If you are genuinely against abortion then compromise means allowing abortions and possibly funding pro-abortion groups, if you are genuinely pro-abortion then a compromise means not making it as easy for someone to get an abortion.

    Personally anyone who does not respect the view of doctors who do not wish to perform abortion and seeks to undermine every law designed to curb abortions is not sincere when they say they wish to curb abortions. Its like saying you are anti-illegal immigration when want to grant amnesty to illegals, its like saying you are not racist when you are a member of the black panthers or the KKK, its like saying you are patriotic if you support globalism and outsourcing. Those things are a contradiction to each other.
    "A nation can survive its fools, and even the ambitious. But it cannot survive treason from within. An enemy at the gates is less formidable, for he is known and carries his banner openly. But the traitor moves amongst those within the gate freely, his sly whispers rustling through all the alleys, heard in the very halls of government itself. For the traitor appears not a traitor; he speaks in accents familiar to his victims, and he wears their face and their arguments, he appeals to the baseness that lies deep in the hearts of all men. He rots the soul of a nation, he works secretly and unknown in the night to undermine the pillars of the city, he infects the body politic so that it can no longer resist. A murder is less to fear"

    Cicero Marcus Tullius

  10. #40
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    Re: Is President Obama Right in This?

    Quote Originally Posted by Wessexman View Post
    Of course it should unless it is specifically given directly to the feds. That is the only way a federal constitution can work without becoming mere guidelines and endangering the necessary autonomy of the states. If the people don't like their abortion rules they should take it up with their states.

    This just proves the point of people like Alexis De Tocqueville and Robert Nisbet who talked about how atomistic individualism and more libertine individual rights can sometimes be combined with aggressive statism of centralised nation states. In fact sometimes they build on each other.

    Boring diatribe ignored.

    I also noticed you did not respond to where I called you on referring to Catholics as fundamentalism which is a position that shows a great deal of ignorance on these issues.
    The only ignorance here is the fact that you - like the simple country dweller that you are - can not comprehend sentences that apparently aren't written by dead guys hell bent on boring the **** out of us :

    As long as the majority of people behind the pro-life movements are Fundamentalist Christian
    Religion in the United States - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

    Roughly 51.3% of Americans are Protestants, 23.9% are Catholics, and 1.7% are Mormons (the name commonly used to refer to members of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints), and 1.6% to various other Christian denominations.[13] Christianity was introduced during the period of European colonization.

    By the 2009 Yearbook of American and Canadian Churches of the National Council of Churches, Roman Catholic Church is the largest single denomination with a membership of 67,117,016, and Southern Baptist Convention ranks second at 16,266,920.
    My statement stands. The majority of people behind the pro-life movement are FUNDAMENTALIST CHRISTIANS. If you don't like this then well. Not my fault. Deal with the statistics.

    Ah! I must inform the Pastor that we need to start imposing strict controls on our charitable activities, to insure that our resources are only expended upon people who follow our religious beliefs, since of course we don't care about the rest.

    And how odd of us that we as Christians are so stalwart in our support of the State of Israel, since it is primarily populated by people of a faith other than our own.

    And when we pray for the relief of the suffering of persons in far off lands who have suffered catastrophes almost incomprehensible to us, we probably should remember to insert a disclaimer asking that all Divine Intercession be expended solely upon those survivors who are of our own faith.

    Finally, in the matter before us, is it to be assumed the Christians are to be concerned only with abortions performed upon other Christians, or used to destroy the Unborn that would likely grow into new Christians?

    Forgive me if I question the previous posters willingness to observe the world around him in lucidity, or to meditate upon what he observes rationally.
    Pssst. Did you read the context of my post? Or just hyperbole?
    I refuse to accept the view that mankind is so tragically bound to the starless midnight of racism and war that the bright daybreak of peace and brotherhood can never become a reality. - MLK

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