I hear ya Goldwater.
I think I'm gonna go put on some John Lennon. Maybe calm myself down a bit.
"All you need is love."
"You may say, I'm a dreamer. But I'm not the only one."
Yeah, I feel much warmer now.
But I can get the same feeling peeing in my pants.
On second thought. I wanna go back to plan A.
Wipe 'em out. Life's too short to be pissin' up a rope.
It's GREAT to be me. --- "45% liberal/55% conservative"
Diplomacy is the art of saying 'nice doggy" until you can find a gun.
You sound like an 80 year old Republican screaming how his support are "FACTS"... Your argument isn't fact. It doesn't take a genuis to realize that legalizing drugs would increase use. Does Amsterdam have less drug users than the United States? I didn't think so. When reprimand is zero and the drugs are even easier to attain(I understand already easy in some cases) then demand is going to increase... at least for the short-term. Long-term is subjective and there's no way of really knowing how it would turn out besides going ahead and doing it.
I suppose we can both agree that education and deglamorization are key to curbing drug use. I just don't see place for heroin, meth, or any other hardcore drug in our society. I mean, the thought that the person using it is the only one affected is just flat wrong... its not some isolated incident where a person uses heroin in a cubicle and then goes through with his/her life. The person will become addicted and it will tear not only their life up, but that of their family and possibly friends or strangers if it turns violent enough.
I know people from school that use drugs regardless of education. Regardless of all the schooling and the counselors and the former users giving speeches... they still use drugs. And increasingly more hardcore drugs. The law has caught up with 1 of them in one way or another(he was selling drugs to some dumbass 14 year old) and the rest will eventually follow suit. That's where my thinking comes from, and from elsewhere of course.
Moreover, alcohol is bad but it is part of Western society. We drink wine at mass and basically sip alcohol at every occasion and in every mood. That is why alcohol prohibition failed. Hardcore drugs do not play any part in our society and never should.
I'll re-state my belief that marijuana legalization is not a completely taboo idea. The economy and drug war suck and taking some measures like legalizing marijuana is not out of the question. On the other hand, drugs like heroin and meth? No way man.
I know not all of this pertains to your comment. I wanted to have my say anyway
Legalize marijuana? Not so fast. - Yahoo! News
Drug Decriminalization In Holland Has Increased Crime and Addiction
Last edited by Tubub; 05-25-09 at 07:34 PM.
“Far better is it to dare mighty things, to win glorious triumphs, even though checked by failure...than to rank with those poor spirits who neither enjoy much nor suffer much, because they live in a gray twilight that knows not victory nor defeat.”
Rosalie Pacula, codirector of the Rand Drug Policy Research Center, poses this question: "If pot is relatively harmless, why are we seeing more than 100,000 hospitalizations a year" for marijuana use? Emergency-room admissions where marijuana is the primary substance involved increased by 164 percent from 1995 to 2002 – faster than for other drugs, according to the Drug Abuse Warning Network.
Prior to 2002, the Drug Abuse Warning Network (DAWN) used collecting and reporting techniques that were so poor and problematic that they needed to be completely overhauled. They came under scrutiny for this, and now they even call themselves "The New DAWN" on their website Under the old rules, the mere mention of marijuana was sufficient grounds for DAWN to consider it an ED associated with marijuana, even if marijuana had nothing to do with the ED visit at all. And the report being quoted actually specifies that "marijuana mentions" were what rose 164%, not emergency room visits due to marijuana.
New DAWN: Why It Cannot Be Compared with Old DAWN
Research results over the past decade link frequent marijuana use to several serious mental health problems
Yeah, they've been making that claim for years. But when you research it, it turns out that people who have schitzophrenia like to smoke weed, so these people are happy to conclude that weed causes schitzophrenia.
Still, health consequences are good reasons why drugs shouldn't be used, they're not good reasons why drugs should be illegal.
I'd like to know where Rep. Solomon got his information on the Netherlands. Apparently they came straight from his behind, because the Duch Embassy website schooled him and similar claims not long after this.
Dutch Embassy websiteAugust 6, 1998
Press, Public and Cultural AffairsDrug Policy and Crime Statistics
Recent accounts in the U.S. press about the Netherlands drug policy have included incorrect and misleading statistics about drug use and drug-related crimes in the Netherlands. What follows is a short list of facts and comparisons to refute those accounts, and sources are given to permit and encourage third party verification of facts.
Last month use of cannabis (marijuana) by high school seniors:
18.1% in the Netherlands (1996);
23.7% in the U.S. (1997).
(Sources: The Trimbos Institute, Amsterdam, the Netherlands; Monitoring the Future Survey, University of Michigan and White House Office of National Drug Control Policy)
Any lifetime use (prevalence) of cannabis by older teens (1994):
30% in the Netherlands;
38% in the U.S.
(Sources: Center for Drug Research, University of Amsterdam; Monitoring the Future Survey, University of Michigan and White House Office of National Drug Control Policy)
Recent (last month) use of cannabis by 15 year olds (in 1995):
15% in the Netherlands;
16% in the U.S.;
24% in the U.K.
(Sources: Trimbos Institute, Amsterdam, the Netherlands; Monitoring the Future Survey, University of Michigan and White House Office of National Drug Control Policy; Council of Europe, ESPAD Report)
Any lifetime use of cannabis by 15 year olds (in 1995):
29% in the Netherlands;
34% in the U.S.;
41% in the U.K.
(Sources: Netherlands Institute of Health and Addiction, U.S. National Institute for Drug Abuse; Council of Europe, ESPAD Report)
Heroine addicts as a percentage of population (in 1995):
160 per 100,000 in the Netherlands;
430 per 100,000 in the U.S.
(Sources: Netherlands Ministry of Health, Welfare and Sport;
White House Office of National Drug Control Policy)
Murder rate as a percentage of population (in 1996):
1.8 per 100,000 in the Netherlands;
8.22 in the U.S.
(Sources: Netherlands Bureau of Statistics; White House Office of National Drug Control Policy)
Incarceration rate as a percentage of population (1997):
73 per 100,000 in the Netherlands;
645 per 100,000 in the U.S.
(Sources: Netherlands Ministry of Justice; White House Office of National Drug Control Strategy)
Crime-related deaths as a percentage of population:
1.2 per 100,000 in the Netherlands (1994);
8.2 per 100,000 in the U.S. (1995).
(Sources: World Health Organization; Uniform Crime Reports, U.S. Federal Bureau of Investigation)
Per capita spending on drug-related law enforcement:
$27 per capita in the Netherlands;
$81 per capita in the U.S.
(Sources: Netherlands Ministry of Justice; White House Office of National Drug Control Strategy)
The Netherlands is lower than the U.S. in all these categories (crime and drug use), in spite of their drug policies. Clearly, decriminalization in the Netherlands ("allowing" drug use as you call it) has not led to widespread drug use and crime.
Also consider the experience of Portugal:
The following countries have also decriminalized marijuana, yet nobody has produced any reports showing an increased rate of crime or marijuana use:Portugal in 2001 became the first European country to officially abolish all criminal penalties for personal possession of drugs, including marijuana, cocaine, heroin and methamphetamine. The question is, does the new policy work? At the time, critics in the poor, socially conservative and largely Catholic nation said decriminalizing drug possession would open the country to "drug tourists" and exacerbate Portugal's drug problem; the country had some of the highest levels of hard-drug use in Europe.
But the recently released results of a report commissioned by the Cato Institute, a libertarian think tank, suggest otherwise. The paper, published by Cato in April, found that in the five years after personal possession was decriminalized, illegal drug use among teens in Portugal declined and rates of new HIV infections caused by sharing of dirty needles dropped, while the number of people seeking treatment for drug addiction more than doubled.
Compared to the European Union and the U.S., Portugal's drug use numbers are impressive. Following decriminalization, Portugal had the lowest rate of lifetime marijuana use in people over 15 in the E.U.: 10%. The most comparable figure in America is in people over 12: 39.8%. Proportionally, more Americans have used cocaine than Portuguese have used marijuana.
Drugs in Portugal: Did Decriminalization Work? - TIME
Italy (1990), Spain (1992), Portugal (2001), Luxembourg (2001), Belgium (2001), and Austria (1998).
What happened to normal words like "insult" or "verbal abuse"?Originally Posted by Tubub
"If religious instruction were not allowed until the child had attained the age of reason, we would be living in quite a different world" - Christopher Hitchens
> Good to be back, but I'm only visiting for a few weeks. <
I've used just about everything out there, numerous times. I've been an irresponsible drug user, I've been an addict, I've hit bottom - hard, I've walked away from addition, I've recovered and I've made my way to a responsible user.
The notion that someone cannot responsibly use drugs is inherently flawed and proven wrong on a daily basis by those of use who DO responsibly use drugs.
All drugs should be legal for all the reasons that others have posted here. It's not the government's place to tell me what I can or cannot ingest. Prohibition doesn't make a problem better, it only makes it worse. People should be responsible for their own actions, as opposed to the government being responsible for them. Etc, etc, etc.
Goddamn I love cocaine. Anywho....
What society? Because they're not legal here. You mean places where some drugs WERE decriminalized and it helped? Well yes then, I DO know what it does to society. It makes it freer and better.Do you know what it is already DOING to society?
What kind of drugs? Legal? Illegal? Just casual use, or addicts? Responsible use or irresponsible use? Are you going to enlighten us to the effects of all possible outcomes, or just the drastic extremes that fit into your small worldview on the subject?Are you all ignorant to the effects of drugs on lives, and families?
They said the same thing about those pesky anti-prohibitionists w/regard to alcohol too. I don't hold much stock in such blatantly incorrect opinions with no basis in fact.Those who advocate such legalization have serious, serious mental issues, and obviously lack much intelligence and education.
Okay, now that I've had my daily laugh at the seemingly unending sheer ignorance Jerry has on that subject.... back on topic now.
Have you ever tried cocaine? Yes, some people can become addicted after one use, much the same as alcohol or cigs (as such, irrelevant), but most people do not. You can function perfectly fine while using cocaine too. In fact, I would challenge you to go to DC and pick out which politicians were high on cocaine at any given time. Betcha can't do it. Bet you never have been able to tell while watching them on TV, have ya?
Heroin is a different matter, though. Can't really function properly in public while high on heroin, people are going to know you're high. However, you CAN use it responsibly. Ditto for LSD, ditto for shrooms, ditto for pot.
Rivrrat, you waste your time debating Kaya. He's under the impression that drugs are "bad" and that is that. No amount of poking holes in his feeble attempts at logical arguments will sway him.
"An error does not become truth by reason of multiplied propagation, nor does truth become error because nobody sees it." - Gandhi
If you believe in the Supernatural then you can become a millionaire!
Questioning or criticizing another's core beliefs is inadvertently perceived as offensive and rude.