View Poll Results: Which drugs should be legalized for recreational use?

Voters
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  • Marijuana

    67 81.71%
  • Cocaine

    36 43.90%
  • LSD

    38 46.34%
  • Meth

    30 36.59%
  • Prescription drugs

    33 40.24%
  • Psychedelic mushrooms

    44 53.66%
  • Ecstasy

    35 42.68%
  • Opium

    38 46.34%
  • other

    28 34.15%
  • None of the above

    14 17.07%
Multiple Choice Poll.
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Thread: Which drugs should be legalized for recreational use?

  1. #261
    Advisor Tubub's Avatar
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    Re: Which drugs should be legalized for recreational use?

    Quote Originally Posted by Binary_Digit View Post


    It's nonsense to think that availability = use when there is no data at all to support that myth.


    Yes, that's definitely part of the problem. You solve a problem by addressing it, not by using it as leverage to justify creating more problems.


    You don't really have an argument here except being a smart ass and claiming availability does not = use when that is simple supply economics. If more of a product is available, there will stadily be more demand based on its increased availability. If there is more demand, there will steadily be more supply based on its increased consumption. Welcome to supply and demand kid.

    And how have you solved it? You haven't even mentioned it existed. A bunch of kids are going to be prone to ads glorifying substance use and soliticed by sellers of such substances. Harold and Kumar is enough glorification.

    Look, if your agitated that you can't support your bad habit freely than its great you'd take your dream world fantasy argument to the internet. In this dream world, heroin only effects those who use it. Marijuana does not impair a persons ability to operate machinery, especially a car, and so would never effect anyone else but the user. And of course the law is meaningless or otherwise hapless when dealing with the average citizen. Only in your world my friend; and a wonderful world It must be
    “Far better is it to dare mighty things, to win glorious triumphs, even though checked by failure...than to rank with those poor spirits who neither enjoy much nor suffer much, because they live in a gray twilight that knows not victory nor defeat.”
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  2. #262
    Educator nerv14's Avatar
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    Re: Which drugs should be legalized for recreational use?

    Quote Originally Posted by Orius View Post
    It's not the degree of taxation, but the degree to which the government is prepared to compete with the drug cartels. You have to realize that the government would be introducing a free market approach to drugs and in order to keep them safe and effective there would need to be regulations. I'm usually against legalization for this very reason... I do not trust government and corporations to regulate the product, and they will, of course, want to.

    Tobacco and alcohol are different because they have historical precedent. People have been using them for thousands of years openly, so trying to take that away makes no sense as it will not curb demand whatsoever. It's why the black market had such an easy time taking over the trade.

    Other narcotics have been outlawed long enough now that they are not socially acceptable anymore. Added to that, they have been outlawed long enough to allow for a well established underground to control supply and demand. In order to curb the crime of the hard drugs, the government would have to become (or subsidize) a supplier that outdoes all the others. Again, I don't trust government to do this or corporate powers.

    I'm in favor of decriminalizing hard drugs but not legalizing them because it will transfer the ability to abuse users from drug dealers and cartels to government and corporate power.
    Marijuanna has a long history of use in this country right now, and that is why it should be allowed. We should look at its use in America to determine if it can be prevented from being used, and it apparently can't.

    Like you said, cartells will always take advantage of it, because people will pay for it.


    The government does a fine job regulating alcohol, and that is an example about how the government can suscesfully regulate substances. I understand that the government has major problems with some programs, but it does well regulating specific substances.

    For example?
    I said alcohol and tobacco before. I don't them as having much more of a culture that is difficult to overcome then Marijuanna.

  3. #263
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    Re: Which drugs should be legalized for recreational use?

    Quote Originally Posted by Goldwaters View Post
    I kind of deciphered the same thing during 20 years of heavy drug use and addiction, 13 years of clean sobriety, and 7 years as a substance abuse counselor at a drug/alchohol rehab facility. Believe it or not, I'm not trying to offer this information to insinuate any greater grasp of the subject. I just want you to know that I'm not a proponent of drug use. I'm simply aware of it's permanence. It's been part of human life for over 3000 years. Right now the forcing underground of drugs makes them infinitly more dangerous.
    Righty-o. I wish I had the answer. But after 3000 years maybe we should quit wasting our time looking for it.

    But the words of Carol O'Conner (Archie Bunker) come back to me. "Get in between your kid and drugs anyway you can."

    I am lucky with my kids. But a lot of parents aren't.

    I wish we were allowed to grow our own and take that money away from the corrupt people who do bad things with it.

    And I wish we were allowed to just go and shoot the dealers of these hard drugs, ourselves. Maybe even put a bounty on their ears.

    Anyway we can. I wish I knew the answer.

    It's GREAT to be me. --- "45% liberal/55% conservative"
    Diplomacy is the art of saying 'nice doggy" until you can find a gun.

  4. #264
    User Thoreau's Avatar
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    Re: Which drugs should be legalized for recreational use?

    Quote Originally Posted by Tubub View Post
    You don't really have an argument here except being a smart ass and claiming availability does not = use when that is simple supply economics. If more of a product is available, there will stadily be more demand based on its increased availability. If there is more demand, there will steadily be more supply based on its increased consumption. Welcome to supply and demand kid.
    That makes zero sense. More supply=more demand, it is the other way around which is why the drug war is an impossibility. Look at it this way, cigarettes are sold just about everywhere yet a ever shrinking proportion of our society uses them. There is a large supply of tobacco products but a decreasing demand for tobacco products. This example right here debunks your notion that supply increases demand, what an absurd proposition.
    And how have you solved it? You haven't even mentioned it existed. A bunch of kids are going to be prone to ads glorifying substance use and soliticed by sellers of such substances. Harold and Kumar is enough glorification.
    I doubt the authorities will allow advertising of hard drugs, since they do not allow tobacco advertising anymore.
    Look, if your agitated that you can't support your bad habit freely than its great you'd take your dream world fantasy argument to the internet.
    Ad Hominem.
    In this dream world, heroin only effects those who use it. Marijuana does not impair a persons ability to operate machinery, especially a car, and so would never effect anyone else but the user.
    We don't let people drink alcohol and operate a motor vehicle or heavy machinery, what is your point? No one is arguing for this.
    And of course the law is meaningless or otherwise hapless when dealing with the average citizen. Only in your world my friend; and a wonderful world It must be
    Ad Hominem.
    All rational action is in the first place individual action. Only the individual thinks. Only the individual reasons. Only the individual acts.

    -Ludwig von Mises

  5. #265
    Advisor Tubub's Avatar
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    Re: Which drugs should be legalized for recreational use?

    Quote Originally Posted by Thoreau View Post
    That makes zero sense. More supply=more demand, it is the other way around which is why the drug war is an impossibility. Look at it this way, cigarettes are sold just about everywhere yet a ever shrinking proportion of our society uses them. There is a large supply of tobacco products but a decreasing demand for tobacco products. This example right here debunks your notion that supply increases demand, what an absurd proposition.

    I doubt the authorities will allow advertising of hard drugs, since they do not allow tobacco advertising anymore.
    Ad Hominem. We don't let people drink alcohol and operate a motor vehicle or heavy machinery, what is your point? No one is arguing for this.Ad Hominem.
    It really doesn't. Supply and demand effect one another, and with lower prices from more supply and the result of legalization there will be more demand.

    There will always be a substantial demand for tabacco products because of that availability. There use has dropped significantly because of
    more education about its use and less glorification but you cannot educate everyone... the difference between cigarettes and heroin is that heroin use is going to destroy the users life as well as his family and possibly lead to physical and emotional abuse and extremely violent behavior. Second-hand smoke is kind of bad I guess.

    What's your point? Drugs would lead to more under the influence driving, which would lead to more accidents... many more deaths.

    Man, this is a philsophical argument. Your an idealist and you disagree with the philosophy behind government banning use on drugs. I respect your opinion but it has nothing to do with the reality. If you really think that legalizing all these disgusting and very harmful drugs would not negatively effect society than shame on you for being so naive.
    Last edited by Tubub; 05-25-09 at 04:11 AM.
    “Far better is it to dare mighty things, to win glorious triumphs, even though checked by failure...than to rank with those poor spirits who neither enjoy much nor suffer much, because they live in a gray twilight that knows not victory nor defeat.”
    -TR

  6. #266
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    Re: Which drugs should be legalized for recreational use?

    Quote Originally Posted by Tubub View Post
    You don't really have an argument here except being a smart ass and claiming availability does not = use when that is simple supply economics. If more of a product is available, there will stadily be more demand based on its increased availability. If there is more demand, there will steadily be more supply based on its increased consumption. Welcome to supply and demand kid.
    Thoreau already ripped apart your fallacious economics, so I'd just like to point out that you still haven't provided any evidence that drug use increases under legalization.

    Quote Originally Posted by Tubub View Post
    And how have you solved it? You haven't even mentioned it existed.
    Please see post #255.

    Quote Originally Posted by Tubub View Post
    A bunch of kids are going to be prone to ads glorifying substance use and soliticed by sellers of such substances. Harold and Kumar is enough glorification.
    I have mentioned deglamorization in this thread at least 4 times. Please try to understand the argument you're responding to.

    Quote Originally Posted by Tubub View Post
    Look, if your agitated that you can't support your bad habit freely than its great you'd take your dream world fantasy argument to the internet.
    Why are you attacking my motives instead of my argument? Are you having that much trouble with it?

    Quote Originally Posted by Tubub View Post
    In this dream world, heroin only effects those who use it. Marijuana does not impair a persons ability to operate machinery, especially a car, and so would never effect anyone else but the user.
    If you could post data to show any drug that has some inherent property which compels people to commit crimes, that would go a long way toward making this not sound like alarmist hyperbole based on myths and misconceptions.

    Quote Originally Posted by Tubub View Post
    And of course the law is meaningless or otherwise hapless when dealing with the average citizen. Only in your world my friend; and a wonderful world It must be
    Several times I've posted evidence that the world's foremost experts are unable to find a correlation between drug laws and the rate drug use. Not once have you posted any evidence to support any of your contradictory assertions and assumptions. So I think it's your world that doesn't fit reality.

    Quote Originally Posted by Captain America View Post
    And I wish we were allowed to just go and shoot the dealers of these hard drugs, ourselves. Maybe even put a bounty on their ears.
    I can't understand what it is about selling drugs to willing adults that gets everyone's panties in a bunch. It's a mutual exchange between consenting adults. It's not like drug dealers are out there shoving narcotics down people's throats against their will. Even besides that, lowering the supply is not the answer because that causes more problems than it solves. Lowering the demand is the answer, through education and deglamorization.

    Quote Originally Posted by Tubub View Post
    It really doesn't. Supply and demand effect one another, and with lower prices from more supply and the result of legalization there will be more demand.

    There will always be a substantial demand for tabacco products because of that availability. There use has dropped significantly because of
    more education about its use and less glorification but you cannot educate everyone... the difference between cigarettes and heroin is that heroin use is going to destroy the users life as well as his family and possibly lead to physical and emotional abuse and extremely violent behavior. Second-hand smoke is kind of bad I guess.

    What's your point? Drugs would lead to more under the influence driving, which would lead to more accidents... many more deaths.

    Man, this is a philsophical argument. Your an idealist and you disagree with the philosophy behind government banning use on drugs. I respect your opinion but it has nothing to do with the reality. If you really think that legalizing all these disgusting and very harmful drugs would not negatively effect society than shame on you for being so naive.
    The only thing you have here is a desperate attempt to rationalize the following statement:

    "Drug use would increase if prohibition were repealed."

    For once I would like for someone, anyone, to support that assertion with some kind of evidence instead of repeating myths and hypotheses ad nauseum.

  7. #267
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    Re: Which drugs should be legalized for recreational use?

    I can't understand what it is about selling drugs to willing adults that gets everyone's panties in a bunch. It's a mutual exchange between consenting adults. It's not like drug dealers are out there shoving narcotics down people's throats against their will. Even besides that, lowering the supply is not the answer because that causes more problems than it solves. Lowering the demand is the answer, through education and deglamorization.

    Can't understand that huh? I don't know what I can say to help explain.

    How about this? Life is a picnic. Drug dealers are ants. They need to be sprayed.

    The best way to get rid of ants is to not leave food for them around, for sure. And educating the populus, as starry-eyed of a concept that may be, would surely be a plus.

    But you gotta bring food to a picnic or it ain't no picnic. Therefore, the next best option is to just exterminate them.

    But that's just my 2 cents.

    Don't get me wrong. I'm all for live and let live. But I also know that if you give a monkey all the coke he wants we won't stop doing it until he's dead.

    But sometimes you have to do what you gotta do to keep ignorant people from killing themselves. An addict has no control over his addiction. You would just as soon watch them deteriorate and die as to step in and save them from themselves? Do you think that is an acceptable downside to liberty?
    Last edited by Captain America; 05-25-09 at 09:41 AM.

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  8. #268
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    Re: Which drugs should be legalized for recreational use?

    Quote Originally Posted by Binary_Digit View Post
    I can't understand what it is about selling drugs to willing adults that gets everyone's panties in a bunch. It's a mutual exchange between consenting adults. It's not like drug dealers are out there shoving narcotics down people's throats against their will. Even besides that, lowering the supply is not the answer because that causes more problems than it solves. Lowering the demand is the answer, through education and deglamorization.
    It's simple. Drug dealers know damn good and well that the junk they sell is addictive, and that they are basically poisoning their customers. They know they are catering to addiction. And they don't care.

    Let's not fool ourselves into thinking that drug dealers are just creative business people. They aren't. They're vile and disgusting creatures, every bit as detestable as tobacco companies (who do pretty much the same thing, merely with the aegis of legality).

    Legalizing drugs is not about saying it's ok to sell or use drugs; it's about acknowledging that liberty means people have the right to do vile and disgusting things (selling drugs) or stupid things (using drugs), and that so long as their conduct does not intrude on innocent bystanders, society/government has no right to coercively intervene.

  9. #269
    Student Goldwaters's Avatar
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    Re: Which drugs should be legalized for recreational use?

    Quote Originally Posted by Captain America View Post
    But the words of Carol O'Conner (Archie Bunker) come back to me. "Get in between your kid and drugs anyway you can."
    I can't count how many times I've used that quote when counseling the parents of drug using teens. Too many parents are busy trying to be friends with thier kids and not the teacher/protector.
    Quote Originally Posted by Captain America View Post
    And I wish we were allowed to just go and shoot the dealers of these hard drugs, ourselves. Maybe even put a bounty on their ears.
    legalize, and most importantly, regulate the hard stuff and they'll be out of business. Nobody, even addicts, like going to a filthy heroin den, or some tweekers junk monument of a house. They would rather go to a place where the dope is clean and they won't get arrested.

    For me...it's not about usage level or availability, these two things are fixed IMO...legalizing is to stop foreign drug cartels, bad dope deaths, and the domestic criminal element.

  10. #270
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    Re: Which drugs should be legalized for recreational use?

    You make good sense Goldwaters.

    But if something logical could be done it shoulda already been done. I think we need to try open season on hard drug dealers, offer regulated programs for the addicts, that doesn't deny them their fix, but rather makes them work for recovery, to get it. That's the education part of it you mentioned I suppose.

    The industry must be taken away from the violent criminals running it. People who sell coke and meth and herion are no better than cockroaches and deserve no more consideration than a cockroach in my humble opinion.

    The people should take back the streets. Just give us 6 weeks of immunity, and I bet you'd see a lot of drug dealers find God.

    It's GREAT to be me. --- "45% liberal/55% conservative"
    Diplomacy is the art of saying 'nice doggy" until you can find a gun.

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