View Poll Results: So, should parents be allowed to refuse life saving treatment for their children?

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  • Yes, parents should be allowed

    31 21.83%
  • No, parents should not be allowed

    97 68.31%
  • I don't know

    14 9.86%
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Thread: Should parents be allowed to refuse life saving treatment for their children?

  1. #131
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    Re: Should parents be allowed to refuse life saving treatment for their children?

    Quote Originally Posted by Ethereal View Post
    A more accurate descriptor of those rights would be "nonexistent". You cannot make a choice which will knowingly result in their death of your child, period.
    Abortion.

    Anyway, I've refrenced Troxil, and with a little token reserch I have every confidence that you will see that the parent's do have such a right.

    As to the case in question, it splits the hair nicely. The deciding factor for me is the fact that the child himself doesn't want chemo, opting for the alternative treatements himself.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ethereal View Post
    Would you consider the article in question a case of a "compelling state interest"?
    Given the dromatic diference between the liklyhood of sucess between the 2 options, I think there may be a compelling interest. If the diference between the chances of sucess were narrower between the two options, problably not.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ethereal View Post
    Noted. I'm still not sure that I see its relevance.
    Well it was an example where one person had complete and total dominance over another indivigual's fate and chose death when other valid options were available.

    In the case of Terry Schiavo, the state sided with the medical proxy even though that meant certan death, so when I look at this I wonder why the state doesn't side with the parents when though that also means certan death.

  2. #132
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    Re: Should parents be allowed to refuse life saving treatment for their children?

    Quote Originally Posted by Ethereal View Post
    This is a blatant lie. I said precisely the opposite in my first post:
    In the post I quoted, you gave a clear cut example, and I was responding to that. I should have been more specific in my response, and I apologize if I implied that you where suggesting all situations would be clear cut.


    Quote Originally Posted by Ethereal
    I repeat: The government can legitimately involve itself in anything characterized by a "compelling state interest".
    "Can" does not mean "should". I have been very clear in not quoting law, but answering the question originally asked, which is should parents be allowed to refuse life saving treatments for children.

  3. #133
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    Re: Should parents be allowed to refuse life saving treatment for their children?

    Quote Originally Posted by Jerry View Post
    It's not even your place to trust or not trust as they aren't your children.
    Bull. Society DOES have the right to take action against unfit parents. By your same logic, parents should be able to molest, torture, neglect, or actively murder their children...and it's not our place to trust or not trust their decisions, since they aren't our children.

    Parents do not have absolute authority over their child's life. For that matter, children do not have absolute authority over their own lives either. The state does have a role to play in cases like these. However, if the child was around 16 instead of 13, I would support his right to refuse treatment on his own accord.
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    Re: Should parents be allowed to refuse life saving treatment for their children?

    Quote Originally Posted by celticlord View Post
    You need to work on your analogies.

    The correct analogy would be a dispute between engineer A who wants a bridge repaired with additional steel and concrete supports underneath (and who owns a construction company), and engineer B who wants to add an aerial span to provide that support.

    Saying that engineer A has no bias in that instance is just as absurd and incorrect as saying the doctors have no bias in this case.
    Actually, the correct analogy would be this: engineers inspect the bridge and say it needs to be closed, temporarily, for rebuilding of the supports. The folks who own the bridge (non-engineers) don't want it closed down, and instead believe that putting lots of rocks under the bridge will support it enough.
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    Re: Should parents be allowed to refuse life saving treatment for their children?

    Quote Originally Posted by Jerry View Post
    Wow, so according to you, years of raising the child as it's legal guardian and intimatly involved in all aspects of that minor child's life does not give the parent any level of compitencey. Outstanding
    Just because a parent has been involved in every aspect of a child's life, does not make them an expert on medical treatment.



    Oh sure, pure objectivity here

    A technical opinion has value, but it does not make decisions.
    I agree with that.

    Parents make the decisions. If their child is like a bridge who's suffering from rust and other wear, it is the parent's decision on rather to close the bridge, for how long, rather to tear it down compleatly or perform patch-work repairs (the latter may allow the bridge to stay open compleatly or for part of the day).
    However, it would make sense that, if the parent truly cared, they would try to obtain as much information, not being an expert in everything, as they could in order to make that decision.

    Give the doctors so much power and watch what happens when, in their medical opinion, there's no reason to terminate a pregnancey. We'll see then how fast your position on the issue changes.
    You've mentioned a couple of times how this is similar to the abortion debate. Can you elaborate?
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    Quote Originally Posted by Wiseone View Post
    This is what I hate about politics the most, it turns people in snobbish egotistical self righteous dicks who allow their political beliefs, partisan attitudes, and 'us vs. them' mentality, to force them to deny reality.

    Quote Originally Posted by Navy Pride View Post
    You can't paint everone with the same brush.......It does not work tht way.


    Quote Originally Posted by Wessexman View Post
    See with you around Captain we don't even have to make arguments, as you already know everything .
    Quote Originally Posted by CriticalThought View Post
    Had you been born elsewhere or at a different time you may very well have chosen a different belief system.
    Quote Originally Posted by ernst barkmann View Post
    It a person has faith they dont need to convince another of it, and when a non believer is not interested in listening to the word of the lord, " you shake the dust from your sandels and move on"

  6. #136
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    Re: Should parents be allowed to refuse life saving treatment for their children?

    Quote Originally Posted by Kandahar View Post
    Bull. Society DOES have the right to take action against unfit parents. By your same logic, parents should be able to molest, torture, neglect, or actively murder their children...and it's not our place to trust or not trust their decisions, since they aren't our children.

    Parents do not have absolute authority over their child's life. For that matter, children do not have absolute authority over their own lives either. The state does have a role to play in cases like these. However, if the child was around 16 instead of 13, I would support his right to refuse treatment on his own accord.
    We're not talking about unfit parents....are we?

    What did I miss? Did the court revoke the parent's rights?

    I apologize if this is the case.

    You're absolutely correct: if the parent's have been deemed "unfit" by the court then their rights are gone, as is their say, and the new court appointed guardian can make any decision in their place.

  7. #137
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    Re: Should parents be allowed to refuse life saving treatment for their children?

    Quote Originally Posted by CaptainCourtesy View Post
    Just because a parent has been involved in every aspect of a child's life, does not make them an expert on medical treatment.

    I agree with that.

    However, it would make sense that, if the parent truly cared, they would try to obtain as much information, not being an expert in everything, as they could in order to make that decision.
    I'm agreeing completely with the sergeant argument that there comes a point where religious freedom stops and the state needs to intervene to prevent medical neglect. Though I reserve my opinion on the OP's example given the lack of critical details, it thus far appears that state intervention may be appropriate. I'm not sure at this point.

    My concern regards where exactly the line is drawn and how that boundary can and likely will be abused (imo) in the future.

    Quote Originally Posted by CaptainCourtesy View Post
    You've mentioned a couple of times how this is similar to the abortion debate. Can you elaborate?
    In both cases we have a parent who is choosing a coarse of action which will likely end their child's life when there are valid alternatives available. With abortion the parent can do whatever she chooses in accordance with her personal beliefs, but when it comes to treating this boy the parent's beliefs are tossed right out.

    Why?

    Topping it off is the child's own objection to receiving chemo. It is as though we have a ZEF screaming through the ultrasound into the doctor's ear "abort me, abort me", yet the ***choice*** is being denied regardless.

    On another thread we are discussing euthanasia. If the child himself and his family choose for him to die this way, who are we to object? It's their life, their child, and more over it's his life he's choosing to potentially forfeit.

    It's his body, his choice, is it not? Granted he's a minor child and so we need his legal guardian to sign off any any contracts or consents (unless he wanted an abortion, ironically), but his legal guardians are consenting on his behalf.

    Since everyone is on board with this except the state, I want to know what establishes the state's compelling interest here.

    ***
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    Last edited by Jerry; 05-17-09 at 11:57 PM.

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    Re: Should parents be allowed to refuse life saving treatment for their children?

    Also, the article in the OP needs to publish a correction: Cancer is NEVER "cured", it goes into remission.

    Maybe from the boy's perspective, he's going to die from this either way.

    Interesting that many would support dispensing lethal drugs to prevent suffering, whereas in this case NOT dispensing drugs would prevent suffering (chemo is no fun, fyi).


    Maybe the boy and his family would rather he die in peace than die in pain from chemo.

    Who is the state to make that decision for them?
    Last edited by Jerry; 05-18-09 at 12:53 AM.

  9. #139
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    Re: Should parents be allowed to refuse life saving treatment for their children?

    Quote Originally Posted by celticlord
    Society should respect that right.
    I concur. I am weary of giving the state power over the parents in this situation.
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  10. #140
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    Re: Should parents be allowed to refuse life saving treatment for their children?

    I don't think parents should be allowed to refuse treatment for their child. I also think that children should be able to refuse treatment if they so desire.
    “We must picture hell as a state where everyone is perpetually concerned about his own dignity and advancement, where everyone has a grievance, and where everyone lives with the deadly serious passions of envy, self-importance, and resentment.”
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