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Would you call for prosecution if someone used torture to save your life?

Would you call for prosecution if someone used torture to save your life?

  • Yes, even though I lived, the law is the law and they broke it.

    Votes: 8 40.0%

  • No, they did what needed to be done.

    Votes: 7 35.0%

  • I have no clue how I'd react in that situation.

    Votes: 5 25.0%
  • Total voters
    20
Zyphlin said:
It can work, however you are doing the opposite of what ADK is doing and implying the other end of the extreme, that somehow torture "does" work seemingly every time which is also not the case.
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It "can" work?
And just what process will we use to determine that it "did" work?

First off: it is illegal. So, it should never be used.

Second: In order to use it you would have to know that your subject had the info you wanted. Gitmo proved that we cannot prove this. Many innocent people were tortured thinking they must have info. If they don't have that info they will tell you anything to stop the torture. And they did! Hence, all those wild goose chases.

And in the ever popular "ticking time bomb" scenario we won't have the luxury of running down false leads. Remember, tick... tock... tick... tock...

And then, don't forget this: "If" you have someone with the desired info, how will you know that what he tells you is the truth? tick... tock...

The experts in this field agree that torture is not reliable. I would place the safety of my life, my family and this country in their hands before I let some right wing power hungry whacko start pulling finger nails until he got the right person and the right information.
 
Lachean said:
If you don't believe in the rights of your enemies, you don't believe in inalienable rights at all. You don't believe that we are all created equal.

What if the terrorist in question was AMERICAN, are their rights meaningless to you just as well? What if you're the alleged terrorist?

No single person's life is worth more than our rights, not even yours.
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Pray tell, what is the point of this country, what inspired our establishment?

Life, Liberty and the Pursuit of Happiness.

Note that LIFE, not liberty, not happiness, comes first.

You operate from the POV my right to live, trumps a terrorist, American or not, right to not be tortured. That's some screwy logic right there.

"Hey guys, you uhm, you all have the rights! However... if we catch some scumbag jihadist terrorist... and are pretty sure he knows about an attack on your city... well you guys are gonna have to die if he won't tell us about it before it happens.

Cause, really, he has rights too, and your right to life... well it's just not as important as his right to be treated humanely..."
 
MrVicchio said:
Let's say... next month there is a big news story of a terrorist attack stopped in the finals stages, like it was gonna go down that Monday before. You learn not only was it going to happen, but that your place of business, the flight you were on... whatever, was the target. You'd be DEAD right now if it had not been stopped.

A few months go by, and it comes out that the information to stop that attack was obtained through water boarding or worse.

Would you demand the "torturers" be tried for their "crimes"?

I mean this in all seriousness.
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In one word...

Yes.

I take it by your seriousness that you would not...

so perhaps you can tell me what the difference is between say... Iraqis who torture and americans who torture? Or nazis who torture and americans who torture? Is there a difference?

Either you are a man of principle or you are not.

I AM.

How about you?
 
TheStripey1 said:
In one word...

Yes.

I take it by your seriousness that you would not...

so perhaps you can tell me what the difference is between say... Iraqis who torture and americans who torture? Or nazis who torture and americans who torture? Is there a difference?

Either you are a man of principle or you are not.

I AM.

How about you?
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Your principles denies the rights of innocent people to live their lives, and use that liberty to pursue happiness, all in favor of some scum bags rights to be treated "nicely".

I however would side on the rights of people to live.

What good are your principles if it gets people killed?
 
You hit the nail on the head.

A hypothetical.

An American is extraordinarily rendered from Paris by the Iranians, but under torture, he admits to knowledge of an Israeli raid that is subsequently thwarted -- lives are undoutedly saved.

Was the torture justifed?
 
MrVicchio said:
What good are your principles if it gets people killed?
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That says more than you know.

We don't negotiate with kidnappers and thus, innocent people may die so many more do not. I don't expect you to understand that tho.
 
MrVicchio said:
Pray tell, what is the point of this country, what inspired our establishment?

Life, Liberty and the Pursuit of Happiness.

Note that LIFE, not liberty, not happiness, comes first.

You operate from the POV my right to live, trumps a terrorist, American or not, right to not be tortured. That's some screwy logic right there.

"Hey guys, you uhm, you all have the rights! However... if we catch some scumbag jihadist terrorist... and are pretty sure he knows about an attack on your city... well you guys are gonna have to die if he won't tell us about it before it happens.

Cause, really, he has rights too, and your right to life... well it's just not as important as his right to be treated humanely..."
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Again, your life is not more important than OUR RIGHTS. Don't speak to me about the founding as you piss on it.

If you think the founders put life before liberty as a matter of political priority, you are very mistaken.

Read Jefferson on life and liberty: "What signify a few lives lost in a century or two?"

What makes me sick is that I would die to defend your rights and your life, when you would obviously give up your rights to live, and would quickly have me tortured despite my rights... May posterity forget that you were my countryman.
 
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MrVicchio said:
Your principles denies the rights of innocent people to live their lives, and use that liberty to pursue happiness, all in favor of some scum bags rights to be treated "nicely".

I however would side on the rights of people to live.

What good are your principles if it gets people killed?
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It means that I am a man of principle who follows the laws of his country while you are... well... who knows...

perhaps you will answer the question I posed to you this time instead of side stepping it like you did last time.

perhaps you can tell me what the difference is between say... Iraqis who torture and americans who torture? Or nazis who torture and americans who torture? Is there a difference?
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I will answer it... as I am not afraid.

IMO, there is no difference between a nazi who tortures their captives and an american who tortures theirs. None whatsoever.

So I say prosecute the torturers and prosecute those who authorized it right up to the top man...
 
Lachean said:
So being suicide bombing, citizen targeting, torturing madmen with no regard for international law is on the same level with those who do not? :roll:
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Precisely. From their moral center such things are permissible and even glorious. All you've done is define a different moral center. You've not established that one moral center is intrinsically superior to another.

Lachean said:
The fact remains that torture is immoral, and the ends do not justify the means. Its not just about survival, we have to remain worthy of it, we have to remain better than them.
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In other words, you're a bigot. Noted.

Lachean said:
Not to mention the fact that engaging in such barbarity causes blow-back, its exactly what Bin Laden wants us to do.
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What bin Laden wants is for us to roll over and die.

Lachean said:
If you cannot defeat us militarily, just scare us into turning our backs on our founding principles, our liberties, on the rest of the world, on the Geneva Conventions and the Magna Carta.
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You would be well advised to study more on those "founding principles". They are not so altruistic nor so lacking in stomach as you are wont to believe.

Lachean said:
They want us to come down to their level, and you're with them. I for one believe that EVERYONE is entitled to a fair trial, even a POS terrorist. I believe in the rights of my enemies.
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The rights of MY enemies:

  1. They have the right to swing first; this gives me the right to kill them.
  2. They have the right to bleed all over creation.
  3. They have the right to die.
  4. They have the right to have a priest, rabbi, or imam present during the smackdown and to administer appropriate funerary rites. If they do not have a priest, rabbi, or imam, I will be happy to obtain one for their funeral at no expense to their family.
Those are the rights of MY enemies.
 
Glinda said:
I'll be dead one day, no matter what. I've lived a good, honorable life and have done nothing to be ashamed of. When it's my time, I'll go without regrets.
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I wonder, would you be willing to apply this noble principle to others who covet their lives more than yourself? What about your family members? Should they become causalities of your fake nobility?

Yes. I believe in the rule of law. Without it, we are no better than those who would do us harm. If I die because our nation was honorable and actually adhered to that rule of law by not torturing people they think might maybe know something, so be it. I'm not really all that important in the grand scheme of things, and neither are you.
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Oh yes, "the grand scheme of things", whatever the hell that's supposed to mean. Nice catch-phrase, but not particularly meaningful. I know you're just talking out of your ass right now, as most people with a cavalier view of death do.

You'll talk all day about sacrificing your life for this and that, and you'll extol "principles" and "morals", but when it comes down to it and death is staring you in the face you will realize, like all humans do, that you cherish your life above all else and that you'll cast aside anything standing between you and existence.

You live in a fantasy world, one where your "morals" will protect you and your family from harm. The only thing which protects you and affords you such a cavalier attitude towards death are the people who actually risk their lives, instead of just blabbing about it on an internet forum. Sometimes they need to get dirty, and sometimes the lines are blurred, but it's easy for your to condemn them, sitting from the comfort of you computer.
 
celticlord said:
The rights of MY enemies:

  1. They have the right to swing first; this gives me the right to kill them.
  2. They have the right to bleed all over creation.
  3. They have the right to die.
  4. They have the right to have a priest, rabbi, or imam present during the smackdown and to administer appropriate funerary rites. If they do not have a priest, rabbi, or imam, I will be happy to obtain one for their funeral at no expense to their family.
Those are the rights of MY enemies.
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And celticlord, your enemies believe the same of you.

IF you choose to lower yourself to their level by engaging in acts of torture, how are you any better than they? The answer is you are not. You are the same.
 
celticlord said:
Precisely. From their moral center such things are permissible and even glorious. All you've done is define a different moral center. You've not established that one moral center is intrinsically superior to another.

In other words, you're a bigot. Noted.
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I think I'm better than a torturer as I am better than a rapist. If you call this bigotry then I wear the badge of honor proudly.

I have no need to prove the superiority of my morality, just as I have no need to prove that freedom is superior to slavery. These are subjective political opinions.

"If a man dies fighting for his own freedom, it is not a sacrifice: he is not willing to live as a slave; but it is a sacrifice to the kind of man who's willing."

celticlord said:
What bin Laden wants is for us to roll over and die.
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And he cannot accomplish this. Since he cannot destroy us physically, he wants us to destroy ourselves, economically in war, and politically in fear.

celticlord said:
You would be well advised to study more on those "founding principles". They are not so altruistic nor so lacking in stomach as you are wont to believe.
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Spare me your advise, I care not for altruism and can stomach much. I too prefer dangerous freedom over peaceful slavery.

celticlord said:
The rights of MY enemies:

  1. They have the right to swing first; this gives me the right to kill them.
  2. They have the right to bleed all over creation.
  3. They have the right to die.
  4. They have the right to have a priest, rabbi, or imam present during the smackdown and to administer appropriate funerary rites. If they do not have a priest, rabbi, or imam, I will be happy to obtain one for their funeral at no expense to their family.
Those are the rights of MY enemies.
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Your disregard for civil rights, or human rights is noted. So if your enemy is an American, these are their rights? Its interesting how similar your position is to that of the enemy, you truly are on their level; and beneath me.
 
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MrVicchio said:
Glinda,

Terrorist have two rights. They have the right to stop being terrorist and find other ways of bringing about whatever change they seek.

And they have a right to suffer any and all forms of pain and anguish for their behavior in the course fighting terrorist.

It's not a hard choice for me. Life > Terrorist.

It's really that easy.
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So you say that the law against torturing captives be damned, that you'd do whatever you felt like doing no matter what?

So by that standard, you must believe it is ok for our enemies to engage in the torture of our POWs in their captivity as well. Or do you apply a different standard in that case?
 
TheStripey1 said:
And celticlord, your enemies believe the same of you.
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That's absolutely untrue. Our enemies believe in the first strike. Our enemies believe in the murder of innocents. Our enemy is the initiator of violence and the slayer of non-combatants.
 
Ethereal said:
I wonder, would you be willing to apply this noble principle to others who covet their lives more than yourself? What about your family members? Should they become causalities of your fake nobility?
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Whoa there. Hold the hell on a minute there. Who are you to suggest that some one is in some way fake with no evidence whatsoever. You may disagree with some ones set of ethics, but to call them fake because you don't like them is incredibly low and vile.
 
Celticlord, can I ask if you are now or have served in the military?
 
Ethereal said:
That's absolutely untrue. Our enemies believe in the first strike. Our enemies believe in the murder of innocents. Our enemy is the initiator of violence and the slayer of non-combatants.
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Sorry charlie, if you think we haven't killed innocent civilians in wars throughout our short history, you must have been asleep in history class.
 
Redress said:
Whoa there. Hold the hell on a minute there. Who are you to suggest that some one is in some way fake with no evidence whatsoever. You may disagree with some ones set of ethics, but to call them fake because you don't like them is incredibly low and vile.
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When death is staring us in the face there are very few thing in life which will fortify our spirit and strengthen our resolve. Sparing a terrorist the discomfort of water-boarding is not one of those things. Anyone who says otherwise has never faced their mortality.
 
TheStripey1 said:
Sorry charlie, if you think we haven't killed innocent civilians in wars throughout our short history, you must have been asleep in history class.
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I didn't say that. I was speaking contemporarily of intent and policy. Presently, it is the avowed policy of the United States military to limit collateral damage if at all possible. You will hear no such assurances from the enemy, in fact, their policy is entirely the opposite; they purposely target non-combatants - we do not.
 
Ethereal said:
When death is staring us in the face there are very few thing in life which will fortify our spirit and strengthen our resolve. Sparing a terrorist the discomfort of water-boarding is not one of those things. Anyone who says otherwise has never faced their mortality.
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When you are staring death in the face, I can promise you that you are most likely not thinking about people who are locked up in any way.

This is looking at things in the wrong way. I have zero sympathy for anything that happens to a terrorist. I do find it important what we choose to do. In other words, the terrorists are not even part of the equation. If torture is immoral, we harm ourselves when we do it, no matter who is being tortured.

Your comments still do not excuse you insulting a posters moral stance. That was low, and you should apologize.
 
Lachean said:
Again, your life is not more important than OUR RIGHTS. Don't speak to me about the founding as you piss on it.
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I Piss on nothing sir, I reject your false claims that a terrorists rights supersede my right to live, or the lives of other American's to live free from terrorist attacks.
Lachean said:
If you think the founders put life before liberty as a matter of political priority, you are very mistaken.
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no, they put life, because you must have life to have liberty to enjoy happiness. See how that works?
Lachean said:
Read Jefferson on life and liberty: "What signify a few lives lost in a century or two?"

What makes me sick is that I would die to defend your rights and your life, when you would obviously give up your rights to live, and would quickly have me tortured despite my rights... May posterity forget that you were my countryman.
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Son, you would let Americans die rather then break the knee cap of a Kalid Sheik Mohammad. That makes you a terrorist enabler. I would break his ****ing knee cap and ensure AMERICANS live safe and free.

That puts me way ahead of you, and the rest of the people here that would rather sit idly by and allow the deaths of innocent people. I care about their rights more then I do some scum bag. People like you lose wars, and get people killed.
 
Ethereal said:
When death is staring us in the face there are very few thing in life which will fortify our spirit and strengthen our resolve. Sparing a terrorist the discomfort of water-boarding is not one of those things. Anyone who says otherwise has never faced their mortality.
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Ever been in combat? I have. That means I have faced my mortality and guess what, eth, I didn't forsake either my convictions or my principles.

Torture is wrong plain and simple. Those that do it, those that authorize it and those who support it are wrong as well.
 
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Ethereal said:
I didn't say that. I was speaking contemporarily of intent and policy. Presently, it is the avowed policy of the United States military to limit collateral damage if at all possible. You will hear no such assurances from the enemy, in fact, their policy is entirely the opposite; they purposely target non-combatants - we do not.
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So your solution is to lower yourself and our nation to their level by engaging in torture?


Since MrV didn't answer my question, perhaps you'd like to give it a shot...

what's the difference between the nazis torturing captives and americans torturing captives?
 
Ethereal said:
I wonder, would you be willing to apply this noble principle to others who covet their lives more than yourself? What about your family members? Should they become causalities of your fake nobility?
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Of course. My morals and ethics do not change with the wind. Nor do the morals and ethics of my family members - they'd all say the same thing. Guess I was just raised better than you. *shrug*

Oh yes, "the grand scheme of things", whatever the hell that's supposed to mean. Nice catch-phrase, but not particularly meaningful. I know you're just talking out of your ass right now, as most people with a cavalier view of death do.
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Are you babbling because you like the look of your words on the screen, or do you have some kind of point to make here?

You'll talk all day about sacrificing your life for this and that, and you'll extol "principles" and "morals", but when it comes down to it and death is staring you in the face you will realize, like all humans do, that you cherish your life above all else and that you'll cast aside anything standing between you and existence.
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And you know this because.....? Maybe you haven't noticed, sir, but you and I are NOTHING alike. To assume that I would react in a given situation exactly as you would react is the height of absurdity.

You live in a fantasy world, one where your "morals" will protect you and your family from harm.
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Oh no. I'm quite aware of my mortality. I'm just not willing to torture others to preserve it. You see, I have morals and ethics and principles that do not change, regardless of the situation. And before you make any more stupid assumptions, I've looked down the barrel of a gun - convenience store robbery - the supposed fear of death you insist justifies any action didn't turn me into a puddle of blubbering crybaby.

The only thing which protects you and affords you such a cavalier attitude towards death are the people who actually risk their lives, instead of just blabbing about it on an internet forum. Sometimes they need to get dirty, and sometimes the lines are blurred, but it's easy for your to condemn them, sitting from the comfort of you computer. Sometimes they need to get dirty, and sometimes the lines are blurred, but it's easy for your to condemn them, sitting from the comfort of you computer.
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Heh. Whatever you say, Col. Jessep. ;)
 
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