View Poll Results: Would you call for prosecution if someone used torture to save your life?

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  • Yes, even though I lived, the law is the law and they broke it.

    10 40.00%
  • No, they did what needed to be done.

    9 36.00%
  • I have no clue how I'd react in that situation.

    6 24.00%
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Thread: Would you call for prosecution if someone used torture to save your life?

  1. #81
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    Re: Would you call for prosecution if someone used torture to save your life?

    Quote Originally Posted by TheStripey1 View Post
    Our own country's principles USED to be against torture until bush et al perverted them. We used to have a higher standard than our enemies, now thanks to chickenhawks we no longer have that moral high ground. By torturing prisoners, our nation has been lowered to the same sorry level as nazi germany, pol pot, north korea and any of the other myriad of despicable dictatorships.
    You need to study this nation's history. Start with the Trail of Tears and Manifest Destiny, work your way through Jim Crow and Plessy v Ferguson, spend some quality of time on Sacco and Vanzetti, then wander into WWII, with Manzanar and other internment camps, the firebombing of Dresden, the use of napalm on Tokyo, the use of atomic weapons on Hiroshima and Nagasaki, the torture of Nazi prisoners at places like Schwabesch Hall, then to the House Un-American Activities Committee (HUAC) and the blacklists of the McCarthy era, the assassination of Ngo Dinh Diem, the use of Agent Orange.....right on up to the present day.

    The moral high ground you fatuously claim for yourself not only does not exist, it never existed at any time in America. (unless you want to count Wilson's stroke demented and virulently racist brain).

    Quote Originally Posted by TheStripey1 View Post
    What you would choose to do in the face of danger has absolutely no bearing on what our country should do. None whatsoever. And were you to kill someone because you think you've been wronged somehow, then you will be arrested and tried in a court of law and it will be up to a jury of your peers to decide whether or not you again walk free.
    This is a red herring. We're not discussing the proper civic response to presumed slight, but the morality of response to clear and present danger.

    Quote Originally Posted by TheStripey1 View Post
    Either we are a country of laws or we are not. I like to think we are.
    Another red herring (see above).

    However, lest you facetiously accuse me of dodging the question (it irrelevancy notwithstanding), we are not a country of laws (although some might argue we are a country of lawyers), but we are a country with a government predicated on a principle endorsing the rule of law rather than the rule of men. A principle the Anti-Republicans with their torture witch hunts are doing their level damndest to destroy.

  2. #82
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    Re: Would you call for prosecution if someone used torture to save your life?

    I don't think you know what red herring means. An "either or" cannot be a red herring, it can be a false dichotomy tho.

    The fact that torture is against the law is VERY to the point, a red herring is an attempted diversion.

    The constitution forbids cruel and unusual punishment, let alone international law. So any soldier who violates his oath to uphold the constitution should be prosecuted; because they have a duty to disobey such orders.
    Last edited by Lachean; 05-13-09 at 07:08 PM.
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  3. #83
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    Re: Would you call for prosecution if someone used torture to save your life?

    Quote Originally Posted by Lachean View Post
    I don't think you know what red herring means. An "either or" cannot be a red herring, it can be a false dichotomy tho.

    The fact that torture is against the law is VERY to the point, a red herring is an attempted diversion.

    The constitution forbids cruel and unusual punishment, let alone international law. So any soldier who violates his oath to uphold the constitution should be prosecuted; because they have a duty to disobey such orders.
    An either/or can easily be a red herring when both propositions are irrelevant to the discussion.

    As for the Constitution....also irrelevant. Torture is not punishment.

    These aren't criminals sentenced to hard time for their wicked ways, these are unlawful combatants being interrogated for the secrets they possess. There is no punishment, and thus the 8th Amendment has no relevancy to this discussion.

  4. #84
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    Re: Would you call for prosecution if someone used torture to save your life?

    Quote Originally Posted by TheStripey1 View Post
    Ever been in combat? I have.
    Congrats for you. I was a Marine infantryman, served seven months in Iraq, extrapolate from that what you will. Either way, it's not terribly important.

    That means I have faced my mortality and guess what, eth, I didn't forsake either my convictions or my principles.
    That's because you weren't presented with a choice. If you had to weigh your own life against the temporary comfort of a terrorist we both know which one you would pick. Don't delude yourself into thinking otherwise.

    Torture is wrong plain and simple. Those that do it, those that authorize it and those who support it are wrong as well.
    So, under no circumstances would you torture anyone...ever? Think about that before you answer...not a single, solitary scenario in the vast expanses of your wildest imagination could you morally justify torture? Is that what you're saying?

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    Re: Would you call for prosecution if someone used torture to save your life?

    Quote Originally Posted by Glinda View Post
    Of course. My morals and ethics do not change with the wind. Nor do the morals and ethics of my family members - they'd all say the same thing. Guess I was just raised better than you. *shrug*
    What about people who do not share your family's lofty ideals of proper and honorable combat? Will they also become causalities of your naiveté?

    Are you babbling because you like the look of your words on the screen, or do you have some kind of point to make here?
    I figured that as along as you were going to babble about "the grand scheme of things" I'd follow suite and talk nonsense too.

    And you know this because.....? Maybe you haven't noticed, sir, but you and I are NOTHING alike. To assume that I would react in a given situation exactly as you would react is the height of absurdity.
    Of course we're not alike. You have a naive and fantastical view of the world; a world where holding your head high is more important than protecting the innocent. You allow your pride and vanity to endanger the lives of the innocent in order to maintain some illusory feeling of moral superiority. Your moral code is nothing more than a Michael Bay movie.

    I, on the other hand, realize that one does not sacrifice their morality simply because they return unjust violence with righteous violence. I understand that warfare evolves and those who fail to adapt will perish. I understand that it is better to be alive than dead. Hollywood hasn't turned my mind into mush, so I understand that being "moral" and self-righteous won't stop nukes from being detonated in our cities.

    Oh no. I'm quite aware of my mortality. I'm just not willing to torture others to preserve it. You see, I have morals and ethics and principles that do not change, regardless of the situation. And before you make any more stupid assumptions, I've looked down the barrel of a gun - convenience store robbery - the supposed fear of death you insist justifies any action didn't turn me into a puddle of blubbering crybaby.
    My moral code is well intact. I deny the categorical immorality of torture, therefore, I believe torture is moral under certain circumstances. Where you fail is in assuming your moral code somehow constitutes the end-all be-all of moral analysis.

    Heh. Whatever you say, Col. Jessep.
    There's more than a bit of truth to what Jessup said. Only someone who is incapable of thinking for themselves would watch that movie and mindlessly cheer on Tom Cruise.

  6. #86
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    Re: Would you call for prosecution if someone used torture to save your life?

    Black or white. That's pretty much all I see, here. MrV's question, is very narrowly construed. It reminds me of the "ticking clock" scenario, a fallacy in and of itself, but let's play this out, because there is a good point, here.

    My answer would be this. He should be prosecuted for torturing the terrorist if it is against the law to do so. AND that does not change the fact that it is OK with me if he did it. See? Shades of gray, folks. Y'all are talking about two higher ideals here: life/liberty and morals. Problem is, most of you are suggesting that these are separate issues. I say they are not; these issues can be combined and used in the same conclusion. Watch this:

    If I knew with 100% certainty that torturing a terrorist would save the lives of many, I would do it, and then turn myself in a plead guilty and expect prosecution. Morals and life/liberty all combined in one answer. I would be both right and wrong to have done that.

    There is no correct answer, here, folks, simply because this is not black or white, as evidenced by your entire discussion.
    "Never fear. Him is here" - Captain Chaos (Dom DeLuise), Cannonball Run

    Mace Windu: Then our worst fears have been realized. We must move quickly if the Jedi Order is to survive.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Wiseone View Post
    This is what I hate about politics the most, it turns people in snobbish egotistical self righteous dicks who allow their political beliefs, partisan attitudes, and 'us vs. them' mentality, to force them to deny reality.

    Quote Originally Posted by Navy Pride View Post
    You can't paint everone with the same brush.......It does not work tht way.


    Quote Originally Posted by Wessexman View Post
    See with you around Captain we don't even have to make arguments, as you already know everything .
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    Had you been born elsewhere or at a different time you may very well have chosen a different belief system.
    Quote Originally Posted by ernst barkmann View Post
    It a person has faith they dont need to convince another of it, and when a non believer is not interested in listening to the word of the lord, " you shake the dust from your sandels and move on"

  7. #87
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    Re: Would you call for prosecution if someone used torture to save your life?

    Quote Originally Posted by CaptainCourtesy View Post
    Black or white. That's pretty much all I see, here. MrV's question, is very narrowly construed. It reminds me of the "ticking clock" scenario, a fallacy in and of itself, but let's play this out, because there is a good point, here.

    My answer would be this. He should be prosecuted for torturing the terrorist if it is against the law to do so. AND that does not change the fact that it is OK with me if he did it. See? Shades of gray, folks. Y'all are talking about two higher ideals here: life/liberty and morals. Problem is, most of you are suggesting that these are separate issues. I say they are not; these issues can be combined and used in the same conclusion. Watch this:

    If I knew with 100% certainty that torturing a terrorist would save the lives of many, I would do it, and then turn myself in a plead guilty and expect prosecution. Morals and life/liberty all combined in one answer. I would be both right and wrong to have done that.

    There is no correct answer, here, folks, simply because this is not black or white, as evidenced by your entire discussion.
    These are cogent points (aside from your obvious dig at my hypothetical), but I believe his question was limited to what you would do specifically, i.e. would you actively advocate your rescuer's prosecution?

  8. #88
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    Re: Would you call for prosecution if someone used torture to save your life?

    Quote Originally Posted by Ethereal View Post
    These are cogent points (aside from your obvious dig at my hypothetical), but I believe his question was limited to what you would do specifically, i.e. would you actively advocate your rescuer's prosecution?
    Truthfully, I only scanned the last page or so, so any dig at your hypothetical was completely unintentional...sorry about that.

    Would I actively advocate the rescuer's prosecution? Hmmm...best answer I can give is, that I wouldn't actively advocate it, but I would agree with it and wouldn't try to stop it.
    "Never fear. Him is here" - Captain Chaos (Dom DeLuise), Cannonball Run

    Mace Windu: Then our worst fears have been realized. We must move quickly if the Jedi Order is to survive.

    ====||:-D

    Quote Originally Posted by Wiseone View Post
    This is what I hate about politics the most, it turns people in snobbish egotistical self righteous dicks who allow their political beliefs, partisan attitudes, and 'us vs. them' mentality, to force them to deny reality.

    Quote Originally Posted by Navy Pride View Post
    You can't paint everone with the same brush.......It does not work tht way.


    Quote Originally Posted by Wessexman View Post
    See with you around Captain we don't even have to make arguments, as you already know everything .
    Quote Originally Posted by CriticalThought View Post
    Had you been born elsewhere or at a different time you may very well have chosen a different belief system.
    Quote Originally Posted by ernst barkmann View Post
    It a person has faith they dont need to convince another of it, and when a non believer is not interested in listening to the word of the lord, " you shake the dust from your sandels and move on"

  9. #89
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    Re: Would you call for prosecution if someone used torture to save your life?

    Quote Originally Posted by CaptainCourtesy View Post
    Truthfully, I only scanned the last page or so, so any dig at your hypothetical was completely unintentional...sorry about that.
    Quite alright. It's well within your rights to dig at anything I say; I just figured I'd keep you on your toes (like all good debaters...). Not to mention that any attacks on my hypothetical will seem tame after the cavity search I endured from Wessexman.

    Would I actively advocate the rescuer's prosecution? Hmmm...best answer I can give is, that I wouldn't actively advocate it, but I would agree with it and wouldn't try to stop it.
    But would you go so far as to say you would be inwardly desirous of his acquittal? I know you would agree with his prosecution as a matter of principle, but where would your heart lie?

  10. #90
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    Re: Would you call for prosecution if someone used torture to save your life?

    Quote Originally Posted by Ethereal View Post
    Quite alright. It's well within your rights to dig at anything I say; I just figured I'd keep you on your toes (like all good debaters...). Not to mention that any attacks on my hypothetical will seem tame after the cavity search I endured from Wessexman.
    Eh, you need to watch ME debate Wessexman.

    But would you go so far as to say you would be inwardly desirous of his acquittal? I know you would agree with his prosecution as a matter of principle, but where would your heart lie?
    This seems to be a different question than the OP. Now, you've added a third component to the life/liberty, morals/principles diad: emotion. Honestly, I would say that I would, inwardly, be desirous of his acquittal from a purely emotional position.
    "Never fear. Him is here" - Captain Chaos (Dom DeLuise), Cannonball Run

    Mace Windu: Then our worst fears have been realized. We must move quickly if the Jedi Order is to survive.

    ====||:-D

    Quote Originally Posted by Wiseone View Post
    This is what I hate about politics the most, it turns people in snobbish egotistical self righteous dicks who allow their political beliefs, partisan attitudes, and 'us vs. them' mentality, to force them to deny reality.

    Quote Originally Posted by Navy Pride View Post
    You can't paint everone with the same brush.......It does not work tht way.


    Quote Originally Posted by Wessexman View Post
    See with you around Captain we don't even have to make arguments, as you already know everything .
    Quote Originally Posted by CriticalThought View Post
    Had you been born elsewhere or at a different time you may very well have chosen a different belief system.
    Quote Originally Posted by ernst barkmann View Post
    It a person has faith they dont need to convince another of it, and when a non believer is not interested in listening to the word of the lord, " you shake the dust from your sandels and move on"

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