View Poll Results: Would you call for prosecution if someone used torture to save your life?

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  • Yes, even though I lived, the law is the law and they broke it.

    10 40.00%
  • No, they did what needed to be done.

    9 36.00%
  • I have no clue how I'd react in that situation.

    6 24.00%
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Thread: Would you call for prosecution if someone used torture to save your life?

  1. #51
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    Re: Would you call for prosecution if someone used torture to save your life?

    Quote Originally Posted by Zyphlin View Post
    It can work, however you are doing the opposite of what ADK is doing and implying the other end of the extreme, that somehow torture "does" work seemingly every time which is also not the case.
    It "can" work?
    And just what process will we use to determine that it "did" work?

    First off: it is illegal. So, it should never be used.

    Second: In order to use it you would have to know that your subject had the info you wanted. Gitmo proved that we cannot prove this. Many innocent people were tortured thinking they must have info. If they don't have that info they will tell you anything to stop the torture. And they did! Hence, all those wild goose chases.

    And in the ever popular "ticking time bomb" scenario we won't have the luxury of running down false leads. Remember, tick... tock... tick... tock...

    And then, don't forget this: "If" you have someone with the desired info, how will you know that what he tells you is the truth? tick... tock...

    The experts in this field agree that torture is not reliable. I would place the safety of my life, my family and this country in their hands before I let some right wing power hungry whacko start pulling finger nails until he got the right person and the right information.
    Thank You Barack Obama for Restoring Honor To The Presidency.
    President Obama will rank as one of our greatest presidents!

  2. #52
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    Re: Would you call for prosecution if someone used torture to save your life?

    Quote Originally Posted by Lachean View Post
    If you don't believe in the rights of your enemies, you don't believe in inalienable rights at all. You don't believe that we are all created equal.

    What if the terrorist in question was AMERICAN, are their rights meaningless to you just as well? What if you're the alleged terrorist?

    No single person's life is worth more than our rights, not even yours.
    Pray tell, what is the point of this country, what inspired our establishment?

    Life, Liberty and the Pursuit of Happiness.

    Note that LIFE, not liberty, not happiness, comes first.

    You operate from the POV my right to live, trumps a terrorist, American or not, right to not be tortured. That's some screwy logic right there.

    "Hey guys, you uhm, you all have the rights! However... if we catch some scumbag jihadist terrorist... and are pretty sure he knows about an attack on your city... well you guys are gonna have to die if he won't tell us about it before it happens.

    Cause, really, he has rights too, and your right to life... well it's just not as important as his right to be treated humanely..."
    C.T.L.W. You figure it out
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  3. #53
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    Re: Would you call for prosecution if someone used torture to save your life?

    Quote Originally Posted by MrVicchio View Post
    Let's say... next month there is a big news story of a terrorist attack stopped in the finals stages, like it was gonna go down that Monday before. You learn not only was it going to happen, but that your place of business, the flight you were on... whatever, was the target. You'd be DEAD right now if it had not been stopped.

    A few months go by, and it comes out that the information to stop that attack was obtained through water boarding or worse.

    Would you demand the "torturers" be tried for their "crimes"?

    I mean this in all seriousness.
    In one word...

    Yes.

    I take it by your seriousness that you would not...

    so perhaps you can tell me what the difference is between say... Iraqis who torture and americans who torture? Or nazis who torture and americans who torture? Is there a difference?

    Either you are a man of principle or you are not.

    I AM.

    How about you?
    I cannot teach anybody anything, I can only make them think.
    ~~ Socrates

  4. #54
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    Re: Would you call for prosecution if someone used torture to save your life?

    Quote Originally Posted by TheStripey1 View Post
    In one word...

    Yes.

    I take it by your seriousness that you would not...

    so perhaps you can tell me what the difference is between say... Iraqis who torture and americans who torture? Or nazis who torture and americans who torture? Is there a difference?

    Either you are a man of principle or you are not.

    I AM.

    How about you?
    Your principles denies the rights of innocent people to live their lives, and use that liberty to pursue happiness, all in favor of some scum bags rights to be treated "nicely".

    I however would side on the rights of people to live.

    What good are your principles if it gets people killed?
    C.T.L.W. You figure it out
    My Endo doc went over my blood work. "I see your estrogen level is now at 315, do you feel like you have too much Estrogen now?"
    I told her "... N... N.. No..." and started crying.


  5. #55
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    Re: Would you call for prosecution if someone used torture to save your life?

    You hit the nail on the head.

    A hypothetical.

    An American is extraordinarily rendered from Paris by the Iranians, but under torture, he admits to knowledge of an Israeli raid that is subsequently thwarted -- lives are undoutedly saved.

    Was the torture justifed?

  6. #56
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    Re: Would you call for prosecution if someone used torture to save your life?

    Quote Originally Posted by MrVicchio View Post
    Pray tell, what is the point of this country, what inspired our establishment?
    It damn sure wasn't "Life, Liberty and Torture your enemies"!
    Thank You Barack Obama for Restoring Honor To The Presidency.
    President Obama will rank as one of our greatest presidents!

  7. #57
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    Re: Would you call for prosecution if someone used torture to save your life?

    Quote Originally Posted by MrVicchio View Post
    What good are your principles if it gets people killed?
    That says more than you know.

    We don't negotiate with kidnappers and thus, innocent people may die so many more do not. I don't expect you to understand that tho.
    Thank You Barack Obama for Restoring Honor To The Presidency.
    President Obama will rank as one of our greatest presidents!

  8. #58
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    Re: Would you call for prosecution if someone used torture to save your life?

    Quote Originally Posted by MrVicchio View Post
    Pray tell, what is the point of this country, what inspired our establishment?

    Life, Liberty and the Pursuit of Happiness.

    Note that LIFE, not liberty, not happiness, comes first.

    You operate from the POV my right to live, trumps a terrorist, American or not, right to not be tortured. That's some screwy logic right there.

    "Hey guys, you uhm, you all have the rights! However... if we catch some scumbag jihadist terrorist... and are pretty sure he knows about an attack on your city... well you guys are gonna have to die if he won't tell us about it before it happens.

    Cause, really, he has rights too, and your right to life... well it's just not as important as his right to be treated humanely..."
    Again, your life is not more important than OUR RIGHTS. Don't speak to me about the founding as you piss on it.

    If you think the founders put life before liberty as a matter of political priority, you are very mistaken.

    Read Jefferson on life and liberty: "What signify a few lives lost in a century or two?"

    What makes me sick is that I would die to defend your rights and your life, when you would obviously give up your rights to live, and would quickly have me tortured despite my rights... May posterity forget that you were my countryman.
    Last edited by Lachean; 05-13-09 at 04:53 PM.
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  9. #59
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    Re: Would you call for prosecution if someone used torture to save your life?

    Quote Originally Posted by MrVicchio View Post
    Your principles denies the rights of innocent people to live their lives, and use that liberty to pursue happiness, all in favor of some scum bags rights to be treated "nicely".

    I however would side on the rights of people to live.

    What good are your principles if it gets people killed?
    It means that I am a man of principle who follows the laws of his country while you are... well... who knows...

    perhaps you will answer the question I posed to you this time instead of side stepping it like you did last time.

    perhaps you can tell me what the difference is between say... Iraqis who torture and americans who torture? Or nazis who torture and americans who torture? Is there a difference?
    I will answer it... as I am not afraid.

    IMO, there is no difference between a nazi who tortures their captives and an american who tortures theirs. None whatsoever.

    So I say prosecute the torturers and prosecute those who authorized it right up to the top man...
    I cannot teach anybody anything, I can only make them think.
    ~~ Socrates

  10. #60
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    Re: Would you call for prosecution if someone used torture to save your life?

    Quote Originally Posted by Lachean View Post
    So being suicide bombing, citizen targeting, torturing madmen with no regard for international law is on the same level with those who do not?
    Precisely. From their moral center such things are permissible and even glorious. All you've done is define a different moral center. You've not established that one moral center is intrinsically superior to another.

    Quote Originally Posted by Lachean View Post
    The fact remains that torture is immoral, and the ends do not justify the means. Its not just about survival, we have to remain worthy of it, we have to remain better than them.
    In other words, you're a bigot. Noted.

    Quote Originally Posted by Lachean View Post
    Not to mention the fact that engaging in such barbarity causes blow-back, its exactly what Bin Laden wants us to do.
    What bin Laden wants is for us to roll over and die.

    Quote Originally Posted by Lachean View Post
    If you cannot defeat us militarily, just scare us into turning our backs on our founding principles, our liberties, on the rest of the world, on the Geneva Conventions and the Magna Carta.
    You would be well advised to study more on those "founding principles". They are not so altruistic nor so lacking in stomach as you are wont to believe.

    Quote Originally Posted by Lachean View Post
    They want us to come down to their level, and you're with them. I for one believe that EVERYONE is entitled to a fair trial, even a POS terrorist. I believe in the rights of my enemies.
    The rights of MY enemies:

    1. They have the right to swing first; this gives me the right to kill them.
    2. They have the right to bleed all over creation.
    3. They have the right to die.
    4. They have the right to have a priest, rabbi, or imam present during the smackdown and to administer appropriate funerary rites. If they do not have a priest, rabbi, or imam, I will be happy to obtain one for their funeral at no expense to their family.

    Those are the rights of MY enemies.

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