View Poll Results: Would you call for prosecution if someone used torture to save your life?

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  • Yes, even though I lived, the law is the law and they broke it.

    10 40.00%
  • No, they did what needed to be done.

    9 36.00%
  • I have no clue how I'd react in that situation.

    6 24.00%
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Thread: Would you call for prosecution if someone used torture to save your life?

  1. #41
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    Re: Would you call for prosecution if someone used torture to save your life?

    Quote Originally Posted by ADK_Forever View Post
    It is indeed a moral choice. However, you also have to factor in that it doesn't work. I know it makes a group of people feel real macho to torture someone but, that's all it is. It does not work.

    Our laws are very clear on this. Torture, and specifically waterboarding, is illegal.
    Actually no, I don't have to factor that in. If it is immoral, then whether it works or not is irrelevant. To put it another way, being immoral we should not do it, so whether it works or not does not matter, we should never get to the point of finding out if it works or not.

  2. #42
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    Re: Would you call for prosecution if someone used torture to save your life?

    No, ADK and others are right, "torturing people" for the sake torture is pointless and doesn't work.

    But we're not talking about "torturing" people...

    So it's silly on their part.
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  3. #43
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    Re: Would you call for prosecution if someone used torture to save your life?

    A better thought experiment for this thread would be "and what if this person tortured was an American citizen? And had their rights violated for your life?"
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  4. #44
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    Re: Would you call for prosecution if someone used torture to save your life?

    Quote Originally Posted by Lachean View Post
    It doesn't work, and even if it did I regard the argument from utility as a logical fallacy.

    Religion "works", communism "works", slavery "works", that is no more to the point at ALL.
    What in the hell are you going on about here? No, seriously, I'm confused.

    Torture "works" occasionally with its prime goal, to extract information. It is not efficient, it is not reliable, it is not full proof, but it CAN actually recover useful inforamtion. Does that mean we should do it, or that it's good? No. All it means is that a statement that "It does not work" as an absolute fact is fraudulent and incorrect.

    How does this relate to Religion. What instance about "religion" do you mean works? Same with communism? Same with Slavery?

    Its immoral, its illegal, it creates more terrorists,it produces bad intelligence and puts agents on wild goose chases, it makes us no better than them, and I don't care if it would save my life. I for one would rather remain worthy of survival.
    And all this has to do with the fact that "It does not work" as an absolute is wrong....how? Hell, you're not even talking about it in a general sense. Torture 100 years ago created more terrorists? Torture, if done 50 years from now in a theoretical war with China will magically create "terrorists". You're talking in a little box which is why you speak about it with such vested interest and with emotional bias due to your distaste/hatred for the former administration.
    You down with TPP?

  5. #45
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    Re: Would you call for prosecution if someone used torture to save your life?

    Quote Originally Posted by MrVicchio View Post
    Wait hold up....

    You're willing to execute them?
    Absolutely. If they've been tried in a legitimate court of law, wherein they had fair and legal access to attorneys to fight their case, and if they are found guilty of crimes against our nation and our people, they should without question be put to death.

    Quote Originally Posted by MrVicchio View Post
    But not torture them?
    Correct. Not only is torture against the law, it is against everything this country stands for. On the other hand, we have laws that I fully and strongly support that call for the execution of those who commit certain crimes. Terrorism is one of them. Torture is another.

  6. #46
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    Re: Would you call for prosecution if someone used torture to save your life?

    Quote Originally Posted by MrVicchio View Post
    No, ADK and others are right, "torturing people" for the sake torture is pointless and doesn't work.

    Encouraging people through physical methods to divulge information does work...

    But they don't want to admit that.
    It can work, however you are doing the opposite of what ADK is doing and implying the other end of the extreme, that somehow torture "does" work seemingly every time which is also not the case.
    You down with TPP?

  7. #47
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    Re: Would you call for prosecution if someone used torture to save your life?

    Quote Originally Posted by Lachean View Post
    A better thought experiment for this thread would be "and what if this person tortured was an American citizen? And had their rights violated for your life?"
    My life > their rights.

    See, that was easy. Because unlike you, I don't see someone that wishes harm and death on others as deserving of being treated nicely.
    C.T.L.W. You figure it out
    My Endo doc went over my blood work. "I see your estrogen level is now at 315, do you feel like you have too much Estrogen now?"
    I told her "... N... N.. No..." and started crying.


  8. #48
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    Re: Would you call for prosecution if someone used torture to save your life?

    Quote Originally Posted by Zyphlin View Post
    What in the hell are you going on about here? No, seriously, I'm confused.

    Torture "works" occasionally with its prime goal, to extract information. It is not efficient, it is not reliable, it is not full proof, but it CAN actually recover useful inforamtion. Does that mean we should do it, or that it's good? No. All it means is that a statement that "It does not work" as an absolute fact is fraudulent and incorrect.
    IMO a method that is not reliable or efficient, and produces more bad intel than good DOESN'T work.

    Besides, even if it did work, EVERY TIME; its efficacy would be irrelevant. Did you miss the rest of my post where I said "even if it did work?"

    Quote Originally Posted by Zyphlin View Post
    How does this relate to Religion. What instance about "religion" do you mean works? Same with communism? Same with Slavery?
    In terms of controlling people, and achieving desired goals.

    People made arguments about the economic implications of slavery to defend it, it "worked." Capitalism works MUCH better than communism, but communism still works.

    My point was that just because something works is not an argument for its use. The argument from utility is a logical fallacy. People often say cite that religious people are happier, when polled. This could very much be a placebo effect...

    Quote Originally Posted by Zyphlin View Post
    And all this has to do with the fact that "It does not work" as an absolute is wrong....how? Hell, you're not even talking about it in a general sense. Torture 100 years ago created more terrorists? Torture, if done 50 years from now in a theoretical war with China will magically create "terrorists". You're talking in a little box which is why you speak about it with such vested interest and with emotional bias due to your distaste/hatred for the former administration.
    Have I said anything about the former administration? Or China? I was talking about blow-back as it occurs TODAY and if you want to deny its existence I have nothing to debate with you.

    I am arguing against the argument from utility. Forget that I said "it doesn't work," even if it did I would be opposed to it.

    I believe that in order to believe in my own rights, I have to support the rights of those who do not agree. This is not an "emotional bias" but a political one; Save your insults for someone who is effected by them.
    Last edited by Lachean; 05-13-09 at 04:13 PM.
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  9. #49
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    Re: Would you call for prosecution if someone used torture to save your life?

    Quote Originally Posted by MrVicchio View Post
    My life > their rights.

    See, that was easy. Because unlike you, I don't see someone that wishes harm and death on others as deserving of being treated nicely.
    Ummm....obvious point, but torture isn't about death. It is about inflicting pain, a lot of it.

    It's really not a quality of life issue either. It is about inflicting pain to get bad information or political power. In either case, not a good idea.

  10. #50
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    Re: Would you call for prosecution if someone used torture to save your life?

    Quote Originally Posted by MrVicchio View Post
    My life > their rights.

    See, that was easy. Because unlike you, I don't see someone that wishes harm and death on others as deserving of being treated nicely.
    If you don't believe in the rights of your enemies, you don't believe in inalienable rights at all. You don't believe that we are all created equal.

    What if the terrorist in question was AMERICAN, are their rights meaningless to you just as well? What if you're the alleged terrorist?

    No single person's life is worth more than our rights, not even yours.
    Last edited by Lachean; 05-13-09 at 04:14 PM.
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