View Poll Results: Would you call for prosecution if someone used torture to save your life?

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  • Yes, even though I lived, the law is the law and they broke it.

    10 40.00%
  • No, they did what needed to be done.

    9 36.00%
  • I have no clue how I'd react in that situation.

    6 24.00%
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Thread: Would you call for prosecution if someone used torture to save your life?

  1. #31
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    Re: Would you call for prosecution if someone used torture to save your life?

    Quote Originally Posted by Redress View Post
    Hmmm...not sure where that came from. I have a very similar view on what you just stated. Terrorists are evil, period, and deserve condemnation. Yup, I agree with that statement 100 %. I would also say I have no sympathy for any terrorist who was tortured. I think though that this is looking at the issue from the wrong end. When it comes to torture, we need to look at ourselves, not at whom we torture, if you understand what I am saying.
    My apologies, I thought your earlier statement was referring to terrorist thinking they were just doing the right thing, I misunderstood your point.
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  2. #32
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    Re: Would you call for prosecution if someone used torture to save your life?

    Quote Originally Posted by celticlord View Post
    With it, we are no better than those who would do us harm.
    So being suicide bombing, citizen targeting, torturing madmen with no regard for international law is on the same level with those who do not?

    The fact remains that torture is immoral, and the ends do not justify the means. Its not just about survival, we have to remain worthy of it, we have to remain better than them.

    Not to mention the fact that engaging in such barbarity causes blow-back, its exactly what Bin Laden wants us to do.

    If you cannot defeat us militarily, just scare us into turning our backs on our founding principles, our liberties, on the rest of the world, on the Geneva Conventions and the Magna Carta.

    They want us to come down to their level, and you're with them. I for one believe that EVERYONE is entitled to a fair trial, even a POS terrorist. I believe in the rights of my enemies.
    Last edited by Lachean; 05-13-09 at 03:46 PM.
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  3. #33
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    Re: Would you call for prosecution if someone used torture to save your life?

    So, here is a real world test.

    When we occupied a Suna portion of Baghdad at the height of the surge, we actually brought stability to the area. However, as we put Iraqi forces in charge to move along, we started get hit by small IED's. The tribal leaders knew what was up, but they weren't talking.

    Should we have tortured them and made them talk?

    Well, as it turns out, the people were terrified of the Iraqi soldiers (who were mostly Shia) and how they would act when the Americans went away. Their solution was to have some of the tribal members plant small IED's that damaged our vehicles but had almost no chance of actually harming an American inside the armored behemoths we drove around in so that we would think there were bad guys in the area and stay.

    The problem was diffused by getting the tribal leaders together with Iraqi commanders so that they became comfortable with one another and that allowed us to move onto other areas.

    Had we tortured the people who 'knew' what was going on, I have no doubt that happy story would have turned out differently and that a lot of people would have died.

    Torture almost always makes things worse. AND it is wrong. And the reality on the ground is not exactly the episode of 24 as it is presented as. In fact, I have yet to see a situation like that. Real counter-terrorism takes time, patience, good intelligence, and a great deal of hard work.
    Last edited by gree0232; 05-13-09 at 03:30 PM.

  4. #34
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    Re: Would you call for prosecution if someone used torture to save your life?

    Quote Originally Posted by MrVicchio View Post
    So you're willing to let people die, even yourself or your family... so that someone caught on a battlefield in another country or by our intelligence services... can get his day in court.
    As I clearly stated earlier:

    First, you have to prove the individual is a terrorist and wasn't simply turned in by a neighbor that hates him, in order to receive a wad of blood money from George Bush.

    There's a reason the individuals in Gitmo haven't been tried. It's because we cannot prove they are terrorists. If we could, they'd all have been tried and executed by now, wouldn't they?

    I ask again, how's that going?

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    Re: Would you call for prosecution if someone used torture to save your life?

    Quote Originally Posted by Glinda View Post
    As I clearly stated earlier:

    First, you have to prove the individual is a terrorist and wasn't simply turned in by a neighbor that hates him, in order to receive a wad of blood money from George Bush.

    There's a reason the individuals in Gitmo haven't been tried. It's because we cannot prove they are terrorists. If we could, they'd all have been tried and executed by now, wouldn't they?

    I ask again, how's that going?
    Wait hold up....

    You're willing to execute them? But not torture them?

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    Re: Would you call for prosecution if someone used torture to save your life?

    Quote Originally Posted by MrVicchio View Post
    The epic failure of your logic is, the terrorist have ZERO desire to talk to you, don't fear death, and ANYTHING we do other then submit to their cause and convert inspires them.


    I know that is an alien concept to some, but that's reality, welcome to it.

    And again, if your life was in my hands in a ticking time bomb situation with a bad guy in custody... you'd go home alive.

    Where as I'd be buried with all the rest killed because you and others like you, are more afraid of hurting a terrorist then saving innocent people from death.
    Sure they don't. All that work I did with the Sons of Iraq and the CLC's, the fact that Hizboallah is talking to the British government, the EU, and the UN is 'proof' they won't talk? Just because YOU brand someone a terrorist does not automatically convey upon them the status of mental disability.

    There are some who are beyond the pale so to speak. A guy like Bin Laden cannot be reasoned with. He needs to be killed, or captured and locked away, not tortured.

    The whole point of terrorism is that the deranged ones tap into a legitimate greivence that they then use to recruit people to go carry out the acts. Why wasn't Bin Laden on the plane that hit the twin towers do you think?

    Guess what torture gives guys like Bin Laden? "Heh, the Americans have branded you a terrorists and won't talk to you! We'll make them listen then!!!!" Honestly, whose side are you on?

  7. #37
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    Re: Would you call for prosecution if someone used torture to save your life?

    Hmm.

    Well, for one, it would depend on what they did and if I consider it torture. As such, since you're stating torture I'm going to assume they did things I consider torture.

    If this was the case, I would likely not call for their prosecution, and potentially help fund their defense, but at the same time I would not begrudge the state for taking action against them.

    I understand and respect the law and in general find the action reprehensible, and much like in cases of immigration issues where I truly at times feel for the immigrants, the law is the law and the state MUST act for the rule of law to remain intact.

    HOWEVER

    There is no law that states that I, unlike the State, must remain a completely impartial arbiter of the law. As such, because this so personally relates to me I would understand that I would come at it from a different view.

    To give you a similar hypothetical.

    If I had a daughter that was raped and a vigilantee went out and found the man that did it and killed him because of a hatred for rapists I would not be leading the call for that man to be prosecuted even though I feel that vigilante murder is wrong. Would I begrudge the State for bringing forth charges even though I have no sympathy for the rapist killed nor hatred or antipathy towards this man for taking the action against him? Absolutely not.

    Does the fact that I would not call for prosecution of this vigilante mean that vigilante justice and murder is okay and should be perfectly legal and common practice? Absolutely not.

    Nothing in our law does it state that citizens are FORCED to agree with, accept, and support the law vocally in all instances...only that we follow it or accept the consequences.
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    Re: Would you call for prosecution if someone used torture to save your life?

    Quote Originally Posted by Redress View Post
    Obviously, I would frame the issue differently, but yeah, it's a moral choice.

    I also think that this debate is good for the country in the long run. We need to decide as a nation what is and is not acceptable, and make our laws as clear as possible in that regard.
    It is indeed a moral choice. However, you also have to factor in that it doesn't work. I know it makes a group of people feel real macho to torture someone but, that's all it is. It does not work.

    Our laws are very clear on this. Torture, and specifically waterboarding, is illegal.
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    Re: Would you call for prosecution if someone used torture to save your life?

    Quote Originally Posted by ADK_Forever View Post
    It is indeed a moral choice. However, you also have to factor in that it doesn't work. I know it makes a group of people feel real macho to torture someone but, that's all it is. It does not work.

    Our laws are very clear on this. Torture, and specifically waterboarding, is illegal.
    Positively factually absolutely incorrect. If you wish to say it is not fully reliable or that it is not the most efficient method that'd be one thing. However, you are stating an absolute, that it "does not work", and for that to be true that would mean that it has never, in any instance, in any case, ever produced useful pieces of information which is flatly and patently false. Talking in absolutes such as this degrades your arguments and calls into question the integrity of your stance because you must over exaggerate and over inflate something presumingly to make your case stronger which calls into question the strength of your case in the first place.
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  10. #40
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    Re: Would you call for prosecution if someone used torture to save your life?

    It doesn't work, and even if it did I regard the argument from utility as a logical fallacy.

    Religion "works", communism "works", slavery "works", that is no more to the point at ALL.

    Its immoral, its illegal, it creates more terrorists, it produces bad intelligence and puts agents on wild goose chases, it makes us no better than them, and I don't care if it would save my life. I for one would rather remain worthy of survival.

    And just because I as an individual, through fear or anger or emotion could be driven to break laws, engage in vigilantism and even torture someone myself; I do not want the state to do so on my behalf.

    Especially when said state regards my political positions (libertarian constitutionalist) as an indication of a domestic terrorist, I don't want torture in their toolbox because one day they could come for me.
    Last edited by Lachean; 05-13-09 at 04:00 PM.
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