View Poll Results: Would you call for prosecution if someone used torture to save your life?

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  • Yes, even though I lived, the law is the law and they broke it.

    10 40.00%
  • No, they did what needed to be done.

    9 36.00%
  • I have no clue how I'd react in that situation.

    6 24.00%
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Thread: Would you call for prosecution if someone used torture to save your life?

  1. #21
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    Re: Would you call for prosecution if someone used torture to save your life?

    Quote Originally Posted by Glinda View Post
    First, you have to prove the individual is a terrorist and not some guy who got $2000 from GW Bush for turning in his much-hated neighbor for having an ugly yard.

    How's that going, by the way?
    So you're willing to let people die, even yourself or your family... so that someone caught on a battlefield in another country or by our intelligence services... can get his day in court.

    Gotcha.

    you cannot stand the thought of someone being "unfairly" treated, but dying because of that same person? Hey no problem, all good by Glinda!
    C.T.L.W. You figure it out
    My Endo doc went over my blood work. "I see your estrogen level is now at 315, do you feel like you have too much Estrogen now?"
    I told her "... N... N.. No..." and started crying.


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    Re: Would you call for prosecution if someone used torture to save your life?

    Quote Originally Posted by MrVicchio View Post
    Nope, but then, I'm not a terrorist out to kill people.

    Why do you treat terrorist like victims? Do you have sympathy for them or agree with them?
    Well, there is this thing called the rule of law.

    As a man who has sworn an oath to the Constitution, so long as my enemy is a threat I can, will, and have sought them out and killed them.

    However, once they lay down their arms, they are no longer a threat. And I am bound both by my reason and my oath (my honor), to do them no harm. In fact, this is a good thing.

    You see, in the kinds of fighting where you go after terrorists, it is kind of hard to find them. Guess how you find them? Either the people tell you, which they won't if they think you are even worse than the bad guys because you torture people (many of whom are undoubtedly innocent when you started torturing people - sorry!) and if you torture them when you do get them they will one) resist, two) lie, three) make **** up, four) tell you whatever you want to hear. Torture almost never results in in good intelligence and if it is your method of intelligence, it invariably will go awry as good intelligence hits will eventually be corrupted by bad intelligence hits from the resulting use of torture.

    Simply put, torture doesn't work. Those who advocate for it, or dehumanize someone in favor of torture usually have something else in mind, and that is usually human political power.

    Honestly, the republicans lost exactly because they embraced this crap. Do you honestly think you will get back in power by further embracing dishonor and ... torture? Do you think getting up on a stage and saying, "I will torture for YOU!" (and they wonder WHY the Republican party is getting smaller?)impressed those of us out there actually doing the dirty work of counter-terrorism?

    Once again, 'torture' even here, is about political power. Not about intelligence or saving lives. Always has been, always will be.

    BTW, you are actually making our job harder, so kindly put a sock in it!!
    Last edited by gree0232; 05-13-09 at 02:45 PM.

  3. #23
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    Re: Would you call for prosecution if someone used torture to save your life?

    First thing is the obvious point that your scenario is slanted. Is torture more effective than those techniques used without question for many years by our law enforcement agencies? Your scenario assumes yes, though I tend to disagree.

    Despite the problems with the scenario I will answer. I like to believe that the US is the best country in the world. That we are on the side of "good". I served this country with that belief in mind, and I think it is common among our service men and women(when you sign up, you agree to follow legal orders from those above you...not just if you agree with them...that is a lot of power to give the government, so you better be sure you can trust the government to at least try and do right). I think it is important that we stay a force for good in the world, and to be a force for good, we need to do the right thing.

    I think that torture, or EIT's, or whatever you want to call it, is wrong from a moral standpoint. I think that since torture is wrong from a moral standpoint, any question as to it's effectiveness is irrelevant. Whether it works, or does not work, it is still wrong. I also think that our service people, and many others, have fought, sacrificed and died to make this country a force for good, and to make this country a good place. I think when we engage in an act that is immoral, for the sole reason of our personal security, that it shows a certain amount of disrespect for those who chose to take risks and died to keep this country a good country.

    I think that the true measure of morality is whether you can make moral choices when it is hard. Are you willing to accept extra personal risk to do what is moral(note that I am not suggesting that for sure there is extra risk in not torturing, I am just going with your scenario kinda thing)? Based my my way of thinking, the answer for me should be obvious.

    Note: I have actually stated that I do not think that any one should be prosecuted over what happened in terms of torture in the Bush administration(assuming there are no huge, unexpected discoveries). I do not think it serves the countries best interest to prosecute people, and that well meaning people trying to do good as best they are able would be caught up in these prosecutions.

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    Re: Would you call for prosecution if someone used torture to save your life?

    Quote Originally Posted by Glinda View Post
    I believe in the rule of law. Without it, we are no better than those who would do us harm.
    With it, we are no better than those who would do us harm.

  5. #25
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    Re: Would you call for prosecution if someone used torture to save your life?

    Quote Originally Posted by Redress View Post
    First thing is the obvious point that your scenario is slanted. Is torture more effective than those techniques used without question for many years by our law enforcement agencies? Your scenario assumes yes, though I tend to disagree.

    Despite the problems with the scenario I will answer. I like to believe that the US is the best country in the world. That we are on the side of "good". I served this country with that belief in mind, and I think it is common among our service men and women(when you sign up, you agree to follow legal orders from those above you...not just if you agree with them...that is a lot of power to give the government, so you better be sure you can trust the government to at least try and do right). I think it is important that we stay a force for good in the world, and to be a force for good, we need to do the right thing.

    I think that torture, or EIT's, or whatever you want to call it, is wrong from a moral standpoint. I think that since torture is wrong from a moral standpoint, any question as to it's effectiveness is irrelevant. Whether it works, or does not work, it is still wrong. I also think that our service people, and many others, have fought, sacrificed and died to make this country a force for good, and to make this country a good place. I think when we engage in an act that is immoral, for the sole reason of our personal security, that it shows a certain amount of disrespect for those who chose to take risks and died to keep this country a good country.

    I think that the true measure of morality is whether you can make moral choices when it is hard. Are you willing to accept extra personal risk to do what is moral(note that I am not suggesting that for sure there is extra risk in not torturing, I am just going with your scenario kinda thing)? Based my my way of thinking, the answer for me should be obvious.

    Note: I have actually stated that I do not think that any one should be prosecuted over what happened in terms of torture in the Bush administration(assuming there are no huge, unexpected discoveries). I do not think it serves the countries best interest to prosecute people, and that well meaning people trying to do good as best they are able would be caught up in these prosecutions.
    AND that is the crux of it really, it's a moral choice.

    Do you let people die, or risk people dying for the comfort of someone you have a pretty good clue is a terrorist.

    For me, the answer is, no, you save lives and prevent the terrorist from carrying out his attack.

    Would I prefer we never have to use such, CERTAINLY I do. However, they force it on us, not the other way around.
    C.T.L.W. You figure it out
    My Endo doc went over my blood work. "I see your estrogen level is now at 315, do you feel like you have too much Estrogen now?"
    I told her "... N... N.. No..." and started crying.


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    Re: Would you call for prosecution if someone used torture to save your life?

    Quote Originally Posted by MrVicchio View Post
    AND that is the crux of it really, it's a moral choice.

    Do you let people die, or risk people dying for the comfort of someone you have a pretty good clue is a terrorist.

    For me, the answer is, no, you save lives and prevent the terrorist from carrying out his attack.

    Would I prefer we never have to use such, CERTAINLY I do. However, they force it on us, not the other way around.
    Obviously, I would frame the issue differently, but yeah, it's a moral choice. I see nothing to gain from condemning people who where trying to do what they felt is right, even though I am disappointed that they chose to do what they did.

    I also think that this debate is good for the country in the long run. We need to decide as a nation what is and is not acceptable, and make our laws as clear as possible in that regard.

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    Re: Would you call for prosecution if someone used torture to save your life?

    Quote Originally Posted by Redress View Post
    Obviously, I would frame the issue differently, but yeah, it's a moral choice. I see nothing to gain from condemning people who where trying to do what they felt is right, even though I am disappointed that they chose to do what they did.

    I also think that this debate is good for the country in the long run. We need to decide as a nation what is and is not acceptable, and make our laws as clear as possible in that regard.
    See, you and I have a different outlook on this... terrorist are evil, period, and deserve condemnation. No matter what they think.. they are wrong.
    C.T.L.W. You figure it out
    My Endo doc went over my blood work. "I see your estrogen level is now at 315, do you feel like you have too much Estrogen now?"
    I told her "... N... N.. No..." and started crying.


  8. #28
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    Re: Would you call for prosecution if someone used torture to save your life?

    Quote Originally Posted by MrVicchio View Post
    See, you and I have a different outlook on this... terrorist are evil, period, and deserve condemnation. No matter what they think.. they are wrong.
    OK, saying that terrorism is wrong is one thing.

    Saying that torture is right? Not only is that another thing, it is wrong.

    It also helps the terrorists recruit by giving them propoganda.

    You pick up arms, we WILL kill you. You put them down, we WILL talk to you. Why is torture any part of that conversation?

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    Re: Would you call for prosecution if someone used torture to save your life?

    Quote Originally Posted by MrVicchio View Post
    See, you and I have a different outlook on this... terrorist are evil, period, and deserve condemnation. No matter what they think.. they are wrong.
    Hmmm...not sure where that came from. I have a very similar view on what you just stated. Terrorists are evil, period, and deserve condemnation. Yup, I agree with that statement 100 %. I would also say I have no sympathy for any terrorist who was tortured. I think though that this is looking at the issue from the wrong end. When it comes to torture, we need to look at ourselves, not at whom we torture, if you understand what I am saying.

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    Re: Would you call for prosecution if someone used torture to save your life?

    Quote Originally Posted by gree0232 View Post
    OK, saying that terrorism is wrong is one thing.

    Saying that torture is right? Not only is that another thing, it is wrong.

    It also helps the terrorists recruit by giving them propoganda.

    You pick up arms, we WILL kill you. You put them down, we WILL talk to you. Why is torture any part of that conversation?
    The epic failure of your logic is, the terrorist have ZERO desire to talk to you, don't fear death, and ANYTHING we do other then submit to their cause and convert inspires them.


    I know that is an alien concept to some, but that's reality, welcome to it.

    And again, if your life was in my hands in a ticking time bomb situation with a bad guy in custody... you'd go home alive.

    Where as I'd be buried with all the rest killed because you and others like you, are more afraid of hurting a terrorist then saving innocent people from death.
    C.T.L.W. You figure it out
    My Endo doc went over my blood work. "I see your estrogen level is now at 315, do you feel like you have too much Estrogen now?"
    I told her "... N... N.. No..." and started crying.


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