View Poll Results: Would you call for prosecution if someone used torture to save your life?

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  • Yes, even though I lived, the law is the law and they broke it.

    10 40.00%
  • No, they did what needed to be done.

    9 36.00%
  • I have no clue how I'd react in that situation.

    6 24.00%
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Thread: Would you call for prosecution if someone used torture to save your life?

  1. #91
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    Re: Would you call for prosecution if someone used torture to save your life?

    Quote Originally Posted by CaptainCourtesy View Post
    Eh, you need to watch ME debate Wessexman.
    I have a hammer and nails at home.

    This seems to be a different question than the OP. Now, you've added a third component to the life/liberty, morals/principles diad: emotion. Honestly, I would say that I would, inwardly, be desirous of his acquittal from a purely emotional position.
    *Sigh*

    (That was a sigh of relief, by the way, at finally being able to have a logical and constructive dialogue)

    Fair enough, but isn't there some moral value inherent to that emotion? Relying solely upon emotion is almost always bad, but that doesn't mean it cannot inform upon a logically sound and comprehensive moral perspective. Basically, where does that emotion come from? What causes you to be inwardly desirous of his acquittal?

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    Re: Would you call for prosecution if someone used torture to save your life?

    Quote Originally Posted by Ethereal View Post
    I have a hammer and nails at home.




    *Sigh*

    (That was a sigh of relief, by the way, at finally being able to have a logical and constructive dialogue)

    Fair enough, but isn't there some moral value inherent to that emotion?
    Sure. I would imagine feeling guilty about being desirous of his acquittal. It would certainly cause a conflict of conscience. The conflict would be my thankfulness over being saved, verses my morals around torture. Ultimately it is a personal vs. global issue. I see the abortion issue similarly.

    Relying solely upon emotion is almost always bad, but that doesn't mean it cannot inform upon a logically sound and comprehensive moral perspective.
    It can inform, but it must be teased out from the purely personal in order to be used logically. If the emotion is based on just the personal, the logic of the global is not being considered.

    Basically, where does that emotion come from? What causes you to be inwardly desirous of his acquittal?
    The innate desire to survive.
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    Re: Would you call for prosecution if someone used torture to save your life?

    Quote Originally Posted by CaptainCourtesy View Post
    Black or white. That's pretty much all I see, here. MrV's question, is very narrowly construed. It reminds me of the "ticking clock" scenario, a fallacy in and of itself, but let's play this out, because there is a good point, here.
    The question is a specious attempt to manipulate perceptions in such a way that answers to the hypothetical question could then be applied to real life scenarious so as to justify them, and/or to try to achieve some sort of rhetorical oneupmanship through the concession of a principle -- even if that principle has nothing to do with what is transpiring in real life.


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    Re: Would you call for prosecution if someone used torture to save your life?

    Quote Originally Posted by CaptainCourtesy View Post
    Black or white. That's pretty much all I see, here. MrV's question, is very narrowly construed. It reminds me of the "ticking clock" scenario, a fallacy in and of itself, but let's play this out, because there is a good point, here.
    There are several fallacies running through this entire debate. The biggest one seems to be that the law is somehow an articulation of moral values and moral codes, when it is nothing of the sort. Mere legality does not make an act moral, and mere illegality does not make an act immoral.

    Take your response: that you would torture and then submit to prosecution. This is not a single response but two, one of which acknowledges that torture is the right thing to do within a particular set of circumstances--i.e., it's moral--and the other of which acknowledges an interpretation of the law that makes the act, moral or immoral, illegal.

    The disturbing quality of the "torture is immoral" adherents is their determination to impose their morality not just on others, but on the law itself. If anything has the power to destroy the rule of law, it is the imposition of morality.

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    Re: Would you call for prosecution if someone used torture to save your life?

    Quote Originally Posted by TheStripey1 View Post
    That puts you in the same category as all the nazis who were tried at Nuremburg after WWII. That's some company you keep, V. Birds of a feather and all that.

    Have you been to war, V? Or is your POV strictly from the sidelines?
    I served ten years in teh Navy as an AG. I have no, not been in actual combat, been close, was in Kosovo (3 months doing turns in the Adriatic bring ho-ho's to the Kosovo's! as we liked to say). My father flew Phantom II's.
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    Re: Would you call for prosecution if someone used torture to save your life?

    Quote Originally Posted by CaptainCourtesy View Post
    Truthfully, I only scanned the last page or so, so any dig at your hypothetical was completely unintentional...sorry about that.

    Would I actively advocate the rescuer's prosecution? Hmmm...best answer I can give is, that I wouldn't actively advocate it, but I would agree with it and wouldn't try to stop it.
    Let me ask you an additional question CC, would said prosecution that you neither supported nor hindered, not ensure that the next time other people might die because those who COULD save lives, were afraid of being thrown in jail? Isn't your position a bit selfish?
    C.T.L.W. You figure it out
    My Endo doc went over my blood work. "I see your estrogen level is now at 315, do you feel like you have too much Estrogen now?"
    I told her "... N... N.. No..." and started crying.


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    Re: Would you call for prosecution if someone used torture to save your life?

    Quote Originally Posted by MrVicchio View Post
    Let's say... next month there is a big news story of a terrorist attack stopped in the finals stages, like it was gonna go down that Monday before. You learn not only was it going to happen, but that your place of business, the flight you were on... whatever, was the target. You'd be DEAD right now if it had not been stopped.

    A few months go by, and it comes out that the information to stop that attack was obtained through water boarding or worse.

    Would you demand the "torturers" be tried for their "crimes"?

    I mean this in all seriousness.
    I would say that the techniques used need to be investigated and if those in charge broke the rules to which they are bound, charges should be brought up. I'm not a fan of the "ends justify the means" sorts of arguments because you justify all sorts of treason and tyranny with it. Our Republic is one built upon law and restriction of government and we need to adhere best we can. Maybe those people just get chucked out of office, but never thrown in jail because a jury of peers may never convict them. Who knows.

    But the breakdown of all these arguments is that you want to justify in general a practice by using extreme and improbable events as the arguments. There's a bomb and a terrorist knows.....terrorists have your family.....you were saved because of torture. But even if those work themselves out, how many people were tortured which didn't yield information, how many were innocents? You want me to say that I should try to excuse abuses of power based on outcome, but I don't agree. If someone wishes to sacrifice their political career and engage in activity which violates the law and the constraints of power laid upon the government, maybe that will happen. Maybe that person would be considered a hero by some. But that person could no longer hold political office; that's for damned sure. I may give private citizens more leeway when it comes to certain forms of law, but the government does not get that luxury. They must necessarily be held in check at all times else we risk losing the Republic.

    And thus there is a better hypothetical which is right up the alley all these others come from.

    Would you sacrifice the Republic in order to use torture techniques for the inconceivably small increase in "safety" or "precaution" it could offer against terrorist attack?
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    Re: Would you call for prosecution if someone used torture to save your life?

    Quote Originally Posted by MrVicchio View Post
    Let me ask you an additional question CC, would said prosecution that you neither supported nor hindered, not ensure that the next time other people might die because those who COULD save lives, were afraid of being thrown in jail? Isn't your position a bit selfish?
    Your question assumes that those are the only people who could save lives and that their methods are the only way. Your questions are becoming more and more narrow...attempting to aim me towards the answer you want.

    Why don't you just say what you are getting at. If it is that torture is OK because it saves lives, sorry I don't agree; it's not that simple. See, I'll echo what I said to Ethereal. There are 3 issues here. Torture as morality. Torture as legality. Torture as a personal emotion/response/justification. My response to these issues is, TO ME torture is ALWAYS immoral. TO ME torture is ALWAYS illegal. TO ME torture might be justified at times. There is no contradiction, here. Though it may be justified, that does not negate it's morality and it's legality, or the consequences of either.

    And the justification of behavior based on extreme circumstances, which is what you are doing is using the exception to prove the rule. Completely fallacious. You are asking a moral question, not a definitive one, though you are trying to make it one. It is not.
    Last edited by CaptainCourtesy; 05-15-09 at 03:02 AM.
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    Mace Windu: Then our worst fears have been realized. We must move quickly if the Jedi Order is to survive.

    ====||:-D

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    This is what I hate about politics the most, it turns people in snobbish egotistical self righteous dicks who allow their political beliefs, partisan attitudes, and 'us vs. them' mentality, to force them to deny reality.

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  9. #99
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    Re: Would you call for prosecution if someone used torture to save your life?

    Quote Originally Posted by MrVicchio View Post
    Let me ask you an additional question CC, would said prosecution that you neither supported nor hindered, not ensure that the next time other people might die because those who COULD save lives, were afraid of being thrown in jail? Isn't your position a bit selfish?
    Mr V, you keep asking questions yet you yourself are shying away from answering some after people have answered yours. Why should people continue to respond to your repeated pushing of the hypothetical if you won't respond to ones presented back for you after an answer.

    If you had/have a daughter and she was raped but the man was not found guilty or just didn't have enough evidence to bring him to trial and a vigilante heard about it and, having a dislike for rapists, when to his home and killed him. Would you call for the vigilantes prosecution? And, if the answer is no, do you suggest than that vigilante killings of people who are not found guilty should be legalized or something condoned by the government?

    And, if you would or if you'd be neutral in regards to the prosecution, would that prosecution ensure that next time other people might be raped because those who would stop the rapists were being thrown in jail?
    You down with TPP?

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    Re: Would you call for prosecution if someone used torture to save your life?

    Quote Originally Posted by TheStripey1 View Post
    IMO, there is no difference between a nazi who tortures their captives and an american who tortures theirs. None whatsoever.
    So a question for you.

    Is a man that steals some food from the grochery store to feed his starving family the same as a man that embezzles millions of dollars from a charity that funds cancer research for children?

    Is a man that walks in to find his daughter being raped and kills the man no different than a person who drives around in a van with a sniper rifle shooting innocent people as they drive?

    Is a man that lies and tells his wife that her ass doesn't look fat in that dress no different than a man who lies to folk about the quality of his investment information in a class he charged them $4,000 to attend?

    You seem to believe that there is an absolute here, that context and extent means zero. I want to see if you're consistant or if you pick and choose when your morality is absolute or not.
    You down with TPP?

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