View Poll Results: If you oppose same-sex marriage, are you...

Voters
46. You may not vote on this poll
  • ... ignorant?

    9 19.57%
  • ... bigoted?

    9 19.57%
  • ... homophobic?

    9 19.57%
  • ... stupid (which differs from ignorant)?

    6 13.04%
  • ... unreasonable?

    11 23.91%
  • ... unenlightened?

    7 15.22%
  • ... (all of the above)

    8 17.39%
  • ... (all of the above, as well as [specify])

    1 2.17%
  • ... (none of the above)

    18 39.13%
  • ... (other)

    11 23.91%
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Thread: If you oppose same-sex marriage, you are...

  1. #201
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    Re: If you oppose same-sex marriage, you are...

    Quote Originally Posted by SouthernDemocrat View Post
    What you are describing is a tyranny of the majority. Your rights in a free society primarily consist of negative rights. You do have some positive rights, however those positive rights only extend so far as to not impede another individual's rights and privileges.

    For example, in a free society, the fundamental basis of that freedom is that individuals own themselves. Thus, even if the majority of citizens in that society voted to institute slavery, that principle of self ownership would prevent that tyranny of the majority from being codified into law. Now thats an extreme example, but the same principle applies to marriage. The majority opinion on the issue is largely irrelevant unless they can reasonably demonstrate how allowing gays and lesbians legal marriage recognition impacts the freedom of others.

    Can you do so?
    I have to say that the tyranny of the majority is what put Obama in office. When gay mattiage is put to a vote by the citizens, it loses every time.

  2. #202
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    Re: If you oppose same-sex marriage, you are...

    Quote Originally Posted by Jerry View Post
    No I can't and I don't claim to be able to either.

    Gay marriage falls apart for other reasons. The law requires that gay marriage be a deeply rooted in the history and traditions of the people inorder to be a fundimental right.

    It's not, therefore there is no mandate to allow it. Without this mandate neither I nor anyone else need to demonstrate how it would be harmfull and your entire argument falls asside.

    Since there is no mandate to permit gay marriage, gays need to demonstrate how gay marriage would better sociaty.

    Can you do so?
    The purpose of the state is not to promote, endorse, or compell adherence to cultural and or religious traditions. That is the province of the church and private institutions. I can't think of anywhere in the constitution where that authority is delegated to the government.

    If you want to live in a country where the state is used as a vehicle for the promotion and endorsement of cultural and religious tradition, perhaps Iran or Saudi Arabia would be a good fit.
    Last edited by SouthernDemocrat; 05-14-09 at 02:07 PM.
    "You're the only person that decides how far you'll go and what you're capable of." - Ben Saunders (Explorer and Endurance Athlete)

  3. #203
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    Re: If you oppose same-sex marriage, you are...

    Quote Originally Posted by Catman View Post
    I have to say that the tyranny of the majority is what put Obama in office. When gay mattiage is put to a vote by the citizens, it loses every time.
    I have 5 words for you: Iowa, Vermont, Massachusetts, Connecticut, Maine.


  4. #204
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    Re: If you oppose same-sex marriage, you are...

    Quote Originally Posted by Catman View Post
    I have to say that the tyranny of the majority is what put Obama in office. When gay mattiage is put to a vote by the citizens, it loses every time.
    I think we obviously have a lot of people here that flunked civics. In a democracy or democratic republic, you have the positive right as a citizen to vote for the individuals you wish to represent you in public office. That is not an example of a tyranny of the majority, but rather its just a positive right inherent in a democracy or republic.

    If we were simply a nation that was subject to majority rule then there would have been no need for a constitution at all other than a simple document that designated us as a nation of majority rule alone. Government could be used for whatever purpose the citizenry chose to use it for without restriction. For example, if the majority up and decided to that the best solution to spiraling Medicare and Social Security costs was to euthanize everyone over 70, then there would be nothing to prevent that law from being implemented and enforced. The role of the courts would simply be to ensure that majority opinion was enforced in all cases.
    "You're the only person that decides how far you'll go and what you're capable of." - Ben Saunders (Explorer and Endurance Athlete)

  5. #205
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    Re: If you oppose same-sex marriage, you are...

    Quote Originally Posted by Goobieman View Post
    False premise - the majority need show no such thing.

    In today's system, a law is passed by the majority; the minority oppressed by that law must then show that their rights have been violated. The majority does not need to show that the existence of gay same-sex marriage hams anyone.
    Exactly, thats why the courts have generally sided with those in favor of legal recognition of same sex marriage. Either way, your on the side of tyranny as you want to take your personal bias and codify that into law.
    "You're the only person that decides how far you'll go and what you're capable of." - Ben Saunders (Explorer and Endurance Athlete)

  6. #206
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    Re: If you oppose same-sex marriage, you are...

    Quote Originally Posted by Catman View Post
    I have to say that the tyranny of the majority is what put Obama in office. When gay mattiage is put to a vote by the citizens, it loses every time.
    So what about our Constitutional Republic?

  7. #207
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    Re: If you oppose same-sex marriage, you are...

    Quote Originally Posted by SouthernDemocrat View Post
    The purpose of the state is not to promote, endorse, or compell adherence to cultural and or religious traditions.
    I didn't say it was.

    Quote Originally Posted by SouthernDemocrat View Post
    That is the province of the church and private institutions.
    One such institution being marriage, sure.

    Quote Originally Posted by SouthernDemocrat View Post
    I can't think of anywhere in the constitution where that authority is delegated to the government.
    Me either...what are you talking about anyway?

    Quote Originally Posted by SouthernDemocrat View Post
    If you want to live in a country where the state is used as a vehicle for the promotion and endorsement of cultural and religious tradition, perhaps Iran or Saudi Arabia would be a good fit.


    ***
    ...sooooo...you can't demonstrate how gay marriage would better sociaty in any way?

  8. #208
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    Re: If you oppose same-sex marriage, you are...

    Quote Originally Posted by Jerry View Post
    I didn't say it was.



    One such institution being marriage, sure.



    Me either...what are you talking about anyway?





    ***
    ...sooooo...you can't demonstrate how gay marriage would better sociaty in any way?
    You stated:

    The law requires that gay marriage be a deeply rooted in the history and traditions of the people inorder to be a fundimental right.

    It's not, therefore there is no mandate to allow it. Without this mandate neither I nor anyone else need to demonstrate how it would be harmfull and your entire argument falls asside.
    Where in the constitution does it state that for group A to enjoy a right or privilege that group B enjoys, they must demonstrate that there is history and tradition of group A having that right or privilege?

    Its an absurd argument that you are making. Our rights and privileges are based in the basic principle that you have the right to live your life the way you choose to so long as your actions do not impede the ability of another individual to do the same. The infringements of this are only when there is an overriding societal concern. For example, if there was a cholera epidemic, your right to live your life the way you chose to might be temporarily restricted because of the dangers to others. Another example is with environmental protections and the commons (parks, public lands). For example, your right to live your life the way you choose to does not extend to having a daily tire fire on your land as there is an overriding societal concern as to the dangers of doing so to others.

    The problem is that there is no reasonable argument to be made as to an overriding social concern state recognition of same sex marriages. It neither impacts the rights and freedoms of others, nor does it present a reasonable danger to others. The only real argument against it is the personal bias of others against it. However, in a free society, even if those others are in the majority, thats not good enough to justify the denial of a right or priviliage under the law that everyone else enjoys.
    "You're the only person that decides how far you'll go and what you're capable of." - Ben Saunders (Explorer and Endurance Athlete)

  9. #209
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    Re: If you oppose same-sex marriage, you are...

    Quote Originally Posted by Jerry View Post
    You didn't take issue with Loving or Skinner, you called SCOTUS precident "usless philociphy" without any qualifyer at all.
    I didn't think that your comment deserved anything in depth at that point, it was just a passing insult comment you made to dismiss my arguments and so I didn't feel the necessity then to waste time trying to explain things to someone whom had already made up his mind to dismiss all of my arguments no matter what. It doesn't change that which I had written about constraint of the branches of government and accountability being held to them.
    You know the time is right to take control, we gotta take offense against the status quo

    Quote Originally Posted by A. de Tocqueville
    "I should have loved freedom, I believe, at all times, but in the time in which we live I am ready to worship it."

  10. #210
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    Re: If you oppose same-sex marriage, you are...

    Quote Originally Posted by Jerry View Post
    ...sooooo...you can't demonstrate how gay marriage would better sociaty in any way?
    People are being deprived of a basic right. The arguments against this right are not really valid enough, however they are still accepted. It betters society by giving people a right they have no right to be deprived of.


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