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Regarding America's past

How do you feel about America's history?


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    22

WI Crippler

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How are your feelings, towards American history up until this point in time? Just in a general sense. There's always going to be a disagreement about specific moments in our history, but what are your overall feelings regarding our country's past....
 
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Overall I have a positive view.

There are multitudinous facts that would contradict that, but all things considered, we've got a pretty bad ass history! :cool:
 
Some missteps but all in all, America has a very positive history.
 
Our history is not perfect, but we ended up at a point where we are currently the best country to live in in the world for me, and that history brought us to that point.
 
Overall, I'd have to say negative. I'll go into more detail when I have time, I gotta run ATM though.
 
Tucker, your label says "very liberal", did you notice that? I'm fairly sure it said something else last week.

You're not going to change your gender too are you? :confused::stooges
 
Tucker, your label says "very liberal", did you notice that? I'm fairly sure it said something else last week.

You're not going to change your gender too are you? :confused::stooges

:rofl: Good observation.

What did it say before?
 
I'm not positive, but I think it was either "conservative" or "independent". I think he's "pulling the long bow"...
 
Until the nation elected a Kenyan to the White House, it was mostly positive, except when the nation failed to impeach a known perjurer.
 
I have positive feelings regarding our past. We are who we are today because of the things that happened in the past.
 
You're going to have to be more vague than that; there's definitely plenty of events and issues in American history to be positive about, but there are also definitely plenty to be negative about. You're question is way too vague; it's like asking "what's your opinion of history?" It's pretty much unanswerable.
 
You're going to have to be more vague than that; there's definitely plenty of events and issues in American history to be positive about, but there are also definitely plenty to be negative about. You're question is way too vague; it's like asking "what's your opinion of history?" It's pretty much unanswerable.

Thats why the options are "overall". It does take into account that you are going to have both positive and negative feelings for specific instances. What the question is asking, is when you weigh the positive against the negative, where does your overall opinion stand on the scale.
 
Tucker, your label says "very liberal", did you notice that? I'm fairly sure it said something else last week.

You're not going to change your gender too are you? :confused::stooges

Did you notice the elephants under my name?:lol:

Last month I was "very conservative" with donkeys. :2razz:

Basically, there are odd little things I do to amuse myself.
 
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American history is always portrayed as proud and victorious.

What they always do, the media, is overshadow historical events that occured concurrently, promoting education in the civil war, when concurrently around the same period, the Taiping Rebellion in Qing China had occured, the latter caused the deaths of 10s of millions through war and disease, and caused the Qing Government to destabilise so much that in 50 years, there would be a revolution. Ask an average American, what major event happened in the 1860s, they'll say the Civil War, but the Civil war isn't anything in comparison to the Taiping Rebellion if we were to talk about a "major event".
 
Overall, I'd have to say negative. I'll go into more detail when I have time, I gotta run ATM though.

Going into more detail now:


I picked "overall negative" based on the way that I weigh the negatives and positives. The biggest negatives in US history outweigh all the positives in my eyes because of their "atrocity" factor. The two biggest, IMO, are the genocide of the native population and slavery.

Slavery was "rectified" in that it was made illegal, but that isn't a positive by my way of viewing things so much as it is a "return to neutral". Nothing can be done to erase the genocide. There were other things that happened in our history as well that I feel overshadow the "good". Japanese internment camps, Jim Crow, the a-bombs, the Tuskeegee incident etc.

The reason why these things overshadow the positives is that our positive history is primarily with ideas specifically in the realms of philosophy, economics, science, politics etc, while our negative things all deal with human beings being murdered, maimed, downtrodden, subjugated, etc.

In my view of the world, these negatives will always surpass those positives because human beings, individuals, matter more to me than concepts or material things.

Now, since the question that was asked refers to opinions about our past, I have to lean towards the side of negative overall because of what was affected by the positives and negatives.

Now, if the question was "How do you feel about the US's over all historical influence in the world: positive or negative" I would say that since concepts, inventions, and such have more overall positive influence globally, that I have a positive view overall of the US's historical influence on the world.

But since it was just "past" in general, I took all factors into account, including my own system of weighing positives and negatives. Obviously actions directly taken against people, be they positive or negative, have the highest weight in my personal views. We've got more negative than positive on that front by a lot. That skews my view towards the negative.
 
Did you notice the elephants under my name?:lol:

Last month I was "very conservative" with donkeys. :2razz:

Basically, there are odd little things I do to amuse myself.

Self amuse? you need to get out more, get some friends:2razz:
 
Thats why the options are "overall". It does take into account that you are going to have both positive and negative feelings for specific instances. What the question is asking, is when you weigh the positive against the negative, where does your overall opinion stand on the scale.

I understand what the question is, which is what my response was directed at. Like I said in my previous post, it's like asking "Overall, what is your opinion of history?" It makes no sense because it's so vague that it's meaningless. Am I supposed to compare the rise of Fascism in Europe and the development of workers' rights in the United States, for example, and say "overall" how it makes me feel? What would even be the point of that?

It seems to me that this thread is either for American patriots or "anti-Americans," both of which suffer from the mistaken conception that America is some kind of monolithic entity to be supported or opposed; in reality, the history of the United States is so complex and so diverse that the question becomes meaningless.

I dislike the mass murdering of Native Americans; I like the civil rights movement. Overall, how should that make me feel?

Moreover, what is the point in passing a post-judgment on history? I understand the idea of studying history to determine how we have got where we are at currently, and also studying it to learn how to act today, but I do not see a point in asking whether a given historical event was "good" or "bad".
 
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Tucker, your label says "very liberal", did you notice that? I'm fairly sure it said something else last week.

You're not going to change your gender too are you? :confused::stooges
Actually I think it's been like that for a while. I was surprised to, I thought it use to say moderate or something. Of course you know my position on moderates.
 
Going into more detail now:


I picked "overall negative" based on the way that I weigh the negatives and positives. The biggest negatives in US history outweigh all the positives in my eyes because of their "atrocity" factor. The two biggest, IMO, are the genocide of the native population and slavery.

Slavery was "rectified" in that it was made illegal, but that isn't a positive by my way of viewing things so much as it is a "return to neutral". Nothing can be done to erase the genocide. There were other things that happened in our history as well that I feel overshadow the "good". Japanese internment camps, Jim Crow, the a-bombs, the Tuskeegee incident etc.

The reason why these things overshadow the positives is that our positive history is primarily with ideas specifically in the realms of philosophy, economics, science, politics etc, while our negative things all deal with human beings being murdered, maimed, downtrodden, subjugated, etc.

In my view of the world, these negatives will always surpass those positives because human beings, individuals, matter more to me than concepts or material things.

Now, since the question that was asked refers to opinions about our past, I have to lean towards the side of negative overall because of what was affected by the positives and negatives.

Now, if the question was "How do you feel about the US's over all historical influence in the world: positive or negative" I would say that since concepts, inventions, and such have more overall positive influence globally, that I have a positive view overall of the US's historical influence on the world.

But since it was just "past" in general, I took all factors into account, including my own system of weighing positives and negatives. Obviously actions directly taken against people, be they positive or negative, have the highest weight in my personal views. We've got more negative than positive on that front by a lot. That skews my view towards the negative.

This is pretty much the rationale behind my vote.
 
I understand what the question is, which is what my response was directed at. Like I said in my previous post, it's like asking "Overall, what is your opinion of history?" It makes no sense because it's so vague that it's meaningless. Am I supposed to compare the rise of Fascism in Europe and the development of workers' rights in the United States, for example, and say "overall" how it makes me feel? What would even be the point of that?

It seems to me that this thread is either for American patriots or "anti-Americans," both of which suffer from the mistaken conception that America is some kind of monolithic entity to be supported or opposed; in reality, the history of the United States is so complex and so diverse that the question becomes meaningless.

I dislike the mass murdering of Native Americans; I like the civil rights movement. Overall, how should that make me feel?

Moreover, what is the point in passing a post-judgment on history? I understand the idea of studying history to determine how we have got where we are at currently, and also studying it to learn how to act today, but I do not see a point in asking whether a given historical event was "good" or "bad".
I can't believe this, I actually believe you have a decent point for once.
 
It seems to me that this thread is either for American patriots or "anti-Americans," both of which suffer from the mistaken conception that America is some kind of monolithic entity to be supported or opposed; in reality, the history of the United States is so complex and so diverse that the question becomes meaningless.

I'm neither an American "patriot" nor "anti-American" but I think I was able to answer it without any real problems.

Its a more specific question than "how do you feel about history" because it is limitted to the US.

I mean, if someone asked "Do you have a positive or negative view of the historical Catholic Church" most people would have a legitimate answer, even though there is a longer frame of reference for discussion there.

The same is true here. It's not difficult to weigh out the positives and the negatives and how you feel about them in order to determine your overall feelings about the US without having to become anti-American or a Super-patriot in the process.
 
I'm neither an American "patriot" nor "anti-American" but I think I was able to answer it without any real problems.

Its a more specific question than "how do you feel about history" because it is limitted to the US.

I mean, if someone asked "Do you have a positive or negative view of the historical Catholic Church" most people would have a legitimate answer, even though there is a longer frame of reference for discussion there.

The same is true here. It's not difficult to weigh out the positives and the negatives and how you feel about them in order to determine your overall feelings about the US without having to become anti-American or a Super-patriot in the process.

As an avid historian, I completely disagree. I see American History as no less complex or diverse than history in general. There are so many different facets to American history that are incomparable, simply due to historical context or development.

As for the Catholic church, that is a very different question, as the Catholic church is a very specific subject - a religious institution. A similar question to this would be "Overall, what do you think of the US government historically?" which I would have no problem answering, obviously (although I would probably refrain from saying that I "like" or "dislike" it).

Asking me to compare the immigration of the Pilgrims to the conquest of the Native Americans to the abolishment of slavery to the development of industrial unionism and the development of workers' rights, to the shooting of students at Kent state, to the bombing of Hiroshima and Nagasaki, to Shays Rebellion, etc.. is like asking me to compare apples to oranges, pineapples, bananas, carrots, ad infinitum. It's just not possible.

And I think that people that think they can do that have a very specific education in American history, and a very specific idea of what American history is. I know, for example, that when I was taught about early American history in gradeschool I was simply taught about the military history and the politics of the Revolution. When I was in uni one of my professors asked us to write down 10 people from this era in American history that weren't a political or military leader and I think I came up with 4 or 5. That really opened my eyes and was the start of me pondering what history actually is, and why I was taught specifically what I was taught. Obviously, I went back and read up extensively on this period regarding other aspects of the era, and it gave me a completely different conception of the time.
 
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Asking me to compare the immigration of the Pilgrims to the conquest of the Native Americans to the abolishment of slavery to the development of industrial unionism and the development of workers' rights, to the shooting of students at Kent state, to the bombing of Hiroshima and Nagasaki, to Shays Rebellion, etc.. is like asking me to compare apples to oranges, pineapples, bananas, carrots, ad infinitum. It's just not possible.

It's not asking for a direct comparison overall, it's asking for a net ratio of positive to negative. That's what I did when I responded. In other wor4ds, you compare the rotten apples to the ripe apples and the rotten oranges to the ripe oranges and then get final ratio of rotten fruit to ripe fruit.

Take the abolishment of slavery as an example of a "positive" historical factor and use Slavery as it's negative counter. Since the abolishment of slavery was just the abolishment of part, but not all of the negatives of slavery, it gets a net negative when taken together. more rotten apples than ripe apples.

If, after making genuine comparisons of each, you think that the ripe fruit outweigh the rotten fruit, you'll have a positive view. If you think the rotten fruit outweigh the ripe fruit, it'll be negative.

And I'd say the fact that the majority of the examples you've given either fall under the "negative" category or "fixing" of something in the negative category, you've essentially answered the question regarding your overall views without answering the poll.

If your list had legitimate positives, things that could be seen as independently positive and not spurred by an abundance of negatives, I'd say that you would be able to claim overall that the question is unanswerable. But you didn't, and I think it means you and I agree that overall, it has to be viewed negatively.



And I think that people that think they can do that have a very specific education in American history, and a very specific idea of what American history is. I know, for example, that when I was taught about early American history in gradeschool I was simply taught about the military history and the politics of the Revolution. When I was in uni one of my professors asked us to write down 10 people from this era in American history that weren't a political or military leader and I think I came up with 4 or 5. That really opened my eyes and was the start of me pondering what history actually is, and why I was taught specifically what I was taught. Obviously, I went back and read up extensively on this period regarding other aspects of the era, and it gave me a completely different conception of the time.

Most of what I know about history comes from outside my formal education through personal research, yet I felt that I could answer the question.
 
I think we're going to have to agree to disagree, then; I don't really think it's possible to compare historical events in such a way, and also don't think it's productive or healthy to promote the post-judgment of historical events, either.
 
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