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  • In the military because it was their only option.

    2 11.11%
  • Young and naive, just following orders.

    2 11.11%
  • Uninformed and in dire need of newspapers.

    1 5.56%
  • Making a sacrifice on behalf of their country.

    14 77.78%
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    14 77.78%
  • Cognizant of their purpose.

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Thread: Belzer and Maher, Smarter Than the Troops.

  1. #11
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    Re: Belzer and Maher, Smarter Than the Troops.

    The link doesn't work for me.


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    Re: Belzer and Maher, Smarter Than the Troops.

    Quote Originally Posted by Redress View Post
    The opinions of our troops are just as relevant as your opinion or mine, maybe a bit more.
    Oh spare me the bull**** about how relevant their opinion is. Their opinion is and becomes irrelevant the moment they sign the contract. If you can't see this simple fact then you're living in a fantasy world. They are employees of the U.S. Government and it's people. They aren't private employees working for a company. They don't get to choose what they work on. They don't get to fill a little form out and hand it to human resources. They don't get to choose who they protect when they're on a mission. They don't get to choose who they shoot at during a mission. They are given orders and if they don't like it they are most of the time court-martial(ed?). The military as much as some like to think it is - is NOT a democracy.
    Last edited by Hatuey; 05-05-09 at 08:29 PM.
    I refuse to accept the view that mankind is so tragically bound to the starless midnight of racism and war that the bright daybreak of peace and brotherhood can never become a reality. - MLK

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    Re: Belzer and Maher, Smarter Than the Troops.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ethereal View Post
    Richard Belzer (partisan hack/wash-up) elaborates on why the troops' opinion of the war is irrelevant. Fact is, the troops don't read as many newspapers as Belzer - sage guru that he is - therefore they must not be as informed as him. I want to rant and rave right now, because this really pisses me off, but I won't. I'll just say this, should I ever see Belzer or Maher in public I got a big goober with their names written all over it. That's a promise.

    YouTube - Belzer & Maher Calling Our Troops Uneducated Idiots

    So, my question is, do you agree with Belzer or Maher? Is there some underlying truth to their assertions or are they just a couple of elitist f***-heads?
    Insulting each other is for the children.
    Insulting our troops angers me...send them(Belzer & Maher, of course) over to Somalia and see how they react to being dragged about !
    Our nation may have the planets finest ever fighting force.....do the things to maintain this lofty position..
    This infantile behavior is not what our nation needs now..

    To add..
    The opinions of our troops is important...they have been there and done that....which is a lot more that can be said for most of the posters here...including me.
    Last edited by earthworm; 05-05-09 at 08:48 PM.

  4. #14
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    Re: Belzer and Maher, Smarter Than the Troops.

    Quote Originally Posted by Hatuey View Post
    Oh spare me the bull**** about how relevant their opinion is. Their opinion is and becomes irrelevant the moment they sign the contract. If you can't see this simple fact then you're living in a fantasy world. They are employees of the U.S. Government and it's people. They aren't private employees working for a company. They don't get to choose what they work on. They don't get to fill a little form out and hand it to human resources. They don't get to choose who they protect when they're on a mission. They don't get to choose who they shoot at during a mission. They are given orders and if they don't like it they are most of the time court-martial(ed?). The military as much as some like to think it is - is NOT a democracy.
    No, they do not have a choice in what they do, and very little in how they do it. I have not seen where any one here is saying otherwise. Before you go off on a rant, try reading, and then argue against what is being said. Here, let me slow it down a bit, make it easy so you can follow.

    1: Troops can vote on their representatives in government. You and I can vote on our representatives in government. In this way, the opinion of the troops is exactly as relevant as yours, mine, Belzer's, or any one elses not above them in the chain of command.

    2: Since the troops are the ones doing the work, they should be consulted on certain details of how the work is done, and what they need to do that work well. In that way, their opinion is more relevant than yours, mine, Belzer's, etc. When I was in the service, we were talked to by fairly high up people on just those subjects, and occasionally, it made a difference.

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    Re: Belzer and Maher, Smarter Than the Troops.

    Quote Originally Posted by Hatuey View Post
    Oh spare me the bull**** about how relevant their opinion is. Their opinion is and becomes irrelevant the moment they sign the contract. If you can't see this simple fact then you're living in a fantasy world. They are employees of the U.S. Government and it's people. They aren't private employees working for a company. They don't get to choose what they work on. They don't get to fill a little form out and hand it to human resources. They don't get to choose who they protect when they're on a mission. They don't get to choose who they shoot at during a mission. They are given orders and if they don't like it they are most of the time court-martial(ed?). The military as much as some like to think it is - is NOT a democracy.
    Thank you for telling me my opinions are irrelevant. I'd put you on ignore if it wasn't for the fact I find you so amusing! ^_^

  6. #16
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    Re: Belzer and Maher, Smarter Than the Troops.

    [quote=Redress;1058012753
    1: Troops can vote on their representatives in government. You and I can vote on our representatives in government. In this way, the opinion of the troops is exactly as relevant as yours, mine, Belzer's, or any one elses not above them in the chain of command.[/quote]

    While this is true, when Congress and the president and Brass send them somewhere, their opinions on the overall larger operations at the time are irrelevant. They may not agree with the operation, but it is their duty and obligation to go and do it. It's also a reason to get extremely pissed off at those who careless and capriciously expose them to unnecessary harm. People do not sign up to pick and choose the operations they want to do or not do. In many ways, they trust US to not screw it up, risk their lives unnecessarily and to provide for them and their needs. It is up to US to not use them capriciously as we are in charge of overall policy, not them.

    This is one of the big reasons I did not like Rummy.

    2: Since the troops are the ones doing the work, they should be consulted on certain details of how the work is done, and what they need to do that work well. In that way, their opinion is more relevant than yours, mine, Belzer's, etc. When I was in the service, we were talked to by fairly high up people on just those subjects, and occasionally, it made a difference.
    This is more of a tactical issue rather than an overarching argument of whether or not the troops' opinions matter on a strategic level. I'd agree with you here on a tactical level, but not on a strategic level.
    "If your opponent is of choleric temperament, seek to irritate him." - Sun Tzu

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    Re: Belzer and Maher, Smarter Than the Troops.

    Quote Originally Posted by Redress View Post
    No, they do not have a choice in what they do, and very little in how they do it.
    Thus why their opinions are irrelevant in this context the people in the video are talking about. Which you are being obtuse about.

    I have not seen where any one here is saying otherwise. Before you go off on a rant, try reading, and then argue against what is being said. Here, let me slow it down a bit, make it easy so you can follow.

    1: Troops can vote on their representatives in government. You and I can vote on our representatives in government. In this way, the opinion of the troops is exactly as relevant as yours, mine, Belzer's, or any one elses not above them in the chain of command.
    Watch what the video is about. It has NOTHING to do with picking representatives. It has to do with soldier's opinions of the war. Their opinions of the war are indeed irrelevant. They're not there to pick and choose what they want to do. Instead of talking **** about 'reading' why don't you watch the video in question so that you'd have a clue as to what you're talking about. A soldier's opinion of the war is indeed irrelevant.

    2: Since the troops are the ones doing the work, they should be consulted on certain details of how the work is done, and what they need to do that work well. In that way, their opinion is more relevant than yours, mine, Belzer's, etc. When I was in the service, we were talked to by fairly high up people on just those subjects, and occasionally, it made a difference.
    Spare me the personal anecdotes. They're as irrelevant as your opinion was whenever you served.
    I refuse to accept the view that mankind is so tragically bound to the starless midnight of racism and war that the bright daybreak of peace and brotherhood can never become a reality. - MLK

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    Re: Belzer and Maher, Smarter Than the Troops.

    Quote Originally Posted by Hatuey View Post
    Thus why their opinions are irrelevant in this context the people in the video are talking about. Which you are being obtuse about.
    You are not listening. You talk so much you cannot hear what any one is saying. The point was, as I have expressed it here multiple times now, is that they have just exactly as relevant as Belzer's. It is not irrelevant, merely minorly relevant. Belzer in the video drew direct comparisons between his knowledge and the troops knowledge, which has nothing to do with how relevant to how the opinions of the troops is(and is wrong).


    Quote Originally Posted by Hatuey
    Watch what the video is about. It has NOTHING to do with picking representatives. It has to do with soldier's opinions of the war. Their opinions of the war are indeed irrelevant. They're not there to pick and choose what they want to do. Instead of talking **** about 'reading' why don't you watch the video in question so that you'd have a clue as to what you're talking about. A soldier's opinion of the war is indeed irrelevant.
    I have watched it twice now, I just watched it again to make sure I was not missing anything and to appease you. I hope you are happy, you owe me 3 minutes of my life back please. Belzer is still wrong. Belzer stated that troop opinions on the war are not important because they where largely young and uneducated. Age has nothing to do with how important your opinions are. I am most likely older than you, should I discount your opinions because of your age? Uneducated is innacurate. I believe you need at least a high school education(GED was not good enough, at least at one point...may be now, I am not sure), and you are tested on your ability to solve problems, though admittedly, the test is not that hard. Further, when you are in a war zone, you develop a real interest in what is going on in relation to that war zone. I am willing to bet that a surprising number of the troops in Iraq know more about the war, more about the why's and so forth that either you or Belzer or me(well, surprising to you and Belzer anyway). They have a vested interest in knowing these things, and I can tell you, from my experience in a war zone, that troops do care and want to know.

    Quote Originally Posted by Hatuey
    Spare me the personal anecdotes. They're as irrelevant as your opinion was whenever you served.
    I am sorry I have actual, relevant life experiences about something that I can add to the debate, where you can only spout what you think from ignorance.

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    Re: Belzer and Maher, Smarter Than the Troops.

    Quote Originally Posted by Hatuey View Post
    All this silly 5th grade bull**** about how our troops have opinions usually comes from both sides though at different times. Liberals do it when it comes to a soldier not wanting to go to Iraq and Conservatives when it's about a soldier who want to go back into that **** hole in the desert. It's always one of two reactions to the opinions of our troops. Tear jerk or HOW DARE YOU! How dare anyone insinuate that the agreement our VOLUNTEER MILITARY makes with the U.S. government leaves their opinion out of the equation. All this **** about troop opinions like they're starving ethnic groups in China. They knew what they were getting into. Their opinions are irrelevant. Left or Right slanted. End of story.
    *Hands Hatuey a napkin, suggests he wipe the spittle from off his chin*

    I'd like to clarify that you are way off topic, but I feel the need to address this tripe regardless. I'll try a post where you're a little more coherent...

    Oh spare me the bull**** about how relevant their opinion is. Their opinion is and becomes irrelevant the moment they sign the contract.
    Irrelevant to whom? In what way?

    If you can't see this simple fact then you're living in a fantasy world. They are employees of the U.S. Government and itís people.
    Oh! You mean like...

    The Executive
    The Legislature
    The Judiciary
    The FBI
    The CIA
    The NSA
    The DEA
    Homeland Security
    FEMA
    The Postal Service
    The IRS
    Etc.

    Wow! That's a lot of peoples' opinions you just rendered totally irrelevant.

    They aren't private employees working for a company. They don't get to choose what they work on. They don't get to fill a little form out and hand it to human resources. They don't get to choose who they protect when they're on a mission. They don't get to choose who they shoot at during a mission. They are given orders and if they don't like it they are most of the time court-martial(ed?). The military as much as some like to think it is - is NOT a democracy.
    Who the f*** said it was? I sure as hell didn't. It seems you're missing the damn point. Allow me to assist you.

    Belzer is claiming our troops are naive and ignorant unlike him, the wise and learned scholar of newspapers, and that they are somehow incapable of having an informed opinion as to why they serve and what the war is about. I'm challenging that BS assertion. I'm also challenging his BS assertion (as well as Maher's) that "the troops" only join the military because they can't find a job. Got it? Great! Now that we're on the same page perhaps you can post something vaguely resembling a relevant thought.


    Here's the video, Grateful Heart:

    [ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qhjt6hsuCQ0"]YouTube - bill maher and belzer[/ame]

  10. #20
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    Re: Belzer and Maher, Smarter Than the Troops.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ethereal View Post
    *Hands Hatuey a napkin, suggests he wipe the spittle from off his chin*
    Ad homs when you've got nothing else? Good to know.

    I'd like to clarify that you are way off topic, but I feel the need to address this tripe regardless. I'll try a post where you're a little more coherent...
    Really? Off topic? Belzer was talking about the troops opinion of the war being irrelevant. Regardless of how he argued as to why their opinions are irrelevant at the end of the day their opinions are still irrelevant. And I'll show you why.

    Irrelevant to whom? In what way?
    Policy makers, the people who put them there. Etc, etc.

    Oh! You mean like...

    The Executive
    The Legislature
    The Judiciary
    The FBI
    The CIA
    The NSA
    The DEA
    Homeland Security
    FEMA
    The Postal Service
    The IRS
    Etc.
    Only NONE of these people you mentioned with I guess the exception of the CIA in some cases can simply leave their jobs. You know. That word we have in the civilian world? Resign? Because they disagree with what they're doing. I dare you to tell me you can just pick up and leave your mission when in the military because of your opinion.

    Wow! That's a lot of peoples' opinions you just rendered totally irrelevant.
    See above as to why your comparisons are invalid.

    Who the f*** said it was? I sure as hell didn't. It seems you're missing the damn point. Allow me to assist you.
    In a democracy my friend. Opinion matters. In the military? Your opinion never did. Tell me. What kind of policy changes were you involved in? Did you disobey any orders without any kind of punishment? And if you did and said punishment was handed out. Could you have just decided you had enough and quit?

    Belzer is claiming our troops are naive and ignorant unlike him, the wise and learned scholar of newspapers, and that they are somehow incapable of having an informed opinion as to why they serve and what the war is about. I'm challenging that BS assertion.
    And that is not what I'm addressing. I'm addressing his claim that the opinions of people in the military for the most part is irrelevant.

    I'm also challenging his BS assertion (as well as Maher's) that "the troops" only join the military because they can't find a job. Got it? Great! Now that we're on the same page perhaps you can post something vaguely resembling a relevant thought.
    Your post :

    Richard Belzer (partisan hack/wash-up) elaborates on why the troops' opinion of the war is irrelevant.
    I addressed why he was right at the end of the day. You might not agree with the argument he made for it but he is right. Or do you REALLY think your opinion matters to anybody other then PR consultants in GOP/Democratic Party election time ads?
    I refuse to accept the view that mankind is so tragically bound to the starless midnight of racism and war that the bright daybreak of peace and brotherhood can never become a reality. - MLK

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