View Poll Results: Do you agree with the general implications of this quote.

Voters
5. You may not vote on this poll
  • Yes

    2 40.00%
  • No

    1 20.00%
  • Other

    2 40.00%
Page 4 of 4 FirstFirst ... 234
Results 31 to 33 of 33

Thread: Is this famous movie quote generally correct?

  1. #31
    Global Moderator
    Engagement!
    Zyphlin's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2005
    Location
    NoMoAuchie
    Last Seen
    @
    Gender
    Lean
    Independent
    Posts
    43,948

    Re: Is this famous movie quote generally correct?

    Quote Originally Posted by Kandahar View Post
    Well to be honest, the people doing the torturing at Gitmo (for example) are only privy to bits and pieces themselves. Chances are, they haven't studied sociology to understand how torture and/or the prison conditions at Gitmo affect people. They've probably never studied criminology or been part of an FBI unit to understand whether or not torture actually produces the desired result. They probably don't have law degrees to understand the legality (or lack thereof) of their actions under the US Military Code of Conduct, federal law, or international law. They've probably never studied international diplomacy to understand how their torture of prisoners might alienate our allies and make cooperation on other issues more difficult, or how it might result in our enemies using it as justification to torture Americans. Similarly, I've never been a part of the US Military to understand the conditions that soldiers face when confronted with ideological extremists.

    Since very few people have done ALL of those things, nearly everyone "renders judgment that bears weight when you have no real framework from which to see or understand the whole," as you said. In light of that, I don't see how my opinion is any less valid than theirs. It's not like THEY have all the answers just by nature of their position.
    However, I'd dare say those creating the procedures for such things that deciminate it down into the lower ranks likely do have information and experience in a number of those areas or have input from people that do, not to mention have the insight into the information that has been shown through practice from intelligence agencies if any have used similar techniques, not to mention information concerning the people in question that are having these things done to them and what, if any, information they may have.

    You're trying to grab the lowest person on the totem pole and use that as your standard, which is rather incorrect when talking about this topic as it would more accurately be those that are creating and ordering these things. Even more than that though, I think you are highly under estimating the knowledge and possible information available to those in the position of these interrogators based on nothing but preconcieved stereotypes. I highly doubt that there are first step enlisted men fresh out of boot camp that walk in, get handed a cup of water, and say pour as you seem to be making it out to be in trying to state that they have little to no better understanding of the situation we're currently in and the effects and possible benefits of these things than the average citizen.
    You down with TPP?

  2. #32
    Enemy Combatant
    Kandahar's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2005
    Location
    Washington, DC
    Last Seen
    10-15-13 @ 06:47 PM
    Gender
    Lean
    Liberal
    Posts
    20,688

    Re: Is this famous movie quote generally correct?

    Quote Originally Posted by Zyphlin View Post
    However, I'd dare say those creating the procedures for such things that deciminate it down into the lower ranks likely do have information and experience in a number of those areas or have input from people that do, not to mention have the insight into the information that has been shown through practice from intelligence agencies if any have used similar techniques, not to mention information concerning the people in question that are having these things done to them and what, if any, information they may have.
    OK, well the people at the top of the command chain get information from all those fields from a variety of different people (rather than having all those experiences themselves). That's basically the same way that most Americans, including those criticizing the policy, get their information as well. So I don't think that one can say that they're above criticism since the average citizen doesn't understand every facet of the issue, when chances are the people making the decisions don't understand every facet of the issue themselves.

    Quote Originally Posted by Zyphlin
    You're trying to grab the lowest person on the totem pole and use that as your standard, which is rather incorrect when talking about this topic as it would more accurately be those that are creating and ordering these things. Even more than that though, I think you are highly under estimating the knowledge and possible information available to those in the position of these interrogators based on nothing but preconcieved stereotypes. I highly doubt that there are first step enlisted men fresh out of boot camp that walk in, get handed a cup of water, and say pour as you seem to be making it out to be in trying to state that they have little to no better understanding of the situation we're currently in and the effects and possible benefits of these things than the average citizen.
    Even if they are highly educated and have a wide range of experiences (which may or may not be the case), it is unlikely that they have a deep knowledge of everything I mentioned...or even a majority of the things I mentioned.
    Are you coming to bed?
    I can't. This is important.
    What?
    Someone is WRONG on the internet! -XKCD

  3. #33
    Sage

    Join Date
    Oct 2006
    Last Seen
    09-27-16 @ 07:51 PM
    Gender
    Lean
    Centrist
    Posts
    15,422
    Blog Entries
    2

    Re: Is this famous movie quote generally correct?

    Well whats also missing, and I feel this is important to note, is that Jessup was arressted by the very military he served in, and charged with violations of the UCMJ to be tried by the government in a military courtroom by a jury of his peers. It was enlisted Marine MPs that kept him from ****ting down Lt. Caffey's neck.

    So while civilian opinion has merit as far as freely voicing it, we do not put civilians on the jury for just that reason. They are not our peers when it comes to military matters, and thus lack the perspective necessary to commute a verdict.
    "Loyalty only matters when there's a hundred reasons not to be-" Gen. Mattis

Page 4 of 4 FirstFirst ... 234

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •