View Poll Results: Do you agree with the general implications of this quote.

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Thread: Is this famous movie quote generally correct?

  1. #11
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    Re: Is this famous movie quote generally correct?

    Quote Originally Posted by Travelsonic View Post
    False diotchonomy much?
    No. Not at all.
    But, a question to you: Avoid the issue much?

  2. #12
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    Re: Is this famous movie quote generally correct?

    Quote Originally Posted by celticlord View Post
    Question: Are you willing to "walk a post," as challenged by Colonel Jessep?
    No I'm not, but that certainly doesn't mean that my opinion doesn't matter just as much as anyone else. Do I have to "walk a post" in order to be able to criticize? Either we have freedom of speech or we don't.

  3. #13
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    Re: Is this famous movie quote generally correct?

    Quote Originally Posted by celticlord View Post
    I would not call it "correct", but Colonel Jessep's monologue does frame a substantive ethical issue--what is the price of freedom?

    If people are not willing to shoulder the burdens and obligations of a Colonel Jessep and his contingent of Marines, do those people have a right to sit in judgment on how he meets those burdens and obligations? If people are not willing to "walk a post," as it were, are they therefore required to accept the actions of a Colonel Jessep, no matter how disturbing they may be?

    I'm not prepared to say that Jessep's monologue is correct, because his perspective places him beyond all accountability, and that does not easily reconcile with the mandate of the military being subordinate to the civilian government, and the government being subordinate to the people in general, which is the proper ordering of things under the Constitution. However, within the accountability that is required under the Constitution, giving the widest latitude to the most challenging tasks in defense of the United States and her citizens is nothing more than simple justice and fairness.
    All true, but another perspective that some need reminding, is that the job of defending this country is not always as pretty as a Paramount movie, but sometimes (being nice) has ugly aspects where people have to get the job done. And furthermore nothing is perfect, not even the Land of the Free, and the Home of the Brave. Not defending errors and omissions, but I would even go so far as to say that some aspects of politics are just as ugly as this torture business. Maybe even uglier, because one might even argue that the intentions are less pure.
    "He who does not think himself worth saving from poverty and ignorance by his own efforts, will hardly be thought worth the efforts of anybody else." -- Frederick Douglass, Self-Made Men (1872)

  4. #14
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    Re: Is this famous movie quote generally correct?

    Celticlord, wonderful post, you framed some of my thoughts, but much better than I could have written them.

    When I was in the navy, I had a late night phone watch, and there was 4 or 5 of the officers, including our squadron skipper, sitting around in the room I was in and having a debate on wartime ethics. I wish I could remember the exact words our skipper spoke, he was a well spoken guy, but his argument went something like this: since we are the ones at the point of our nations spear, it is in fact especially important that we try and do what is right. We represent our service and our nation in every action we do, and when we engage in any misconduct with other countries, we shame not just ourselves, but our service and our nation. We have to strive to not just do what is best militarily, but morally, to the best of our ability.

    I thought enough of his statements that I can still remember them in general 18 years later. I think that is how things should be, but I suspect that Colonel Jessep's attitude is far too prevalent.

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    Re: Is this famous movie quote generally correct?

    Quote Originally Posted by dclxvinoise View Post
    No I'm not, but that certainly doesn't mean that my opinion doesn't matter just as much as anyone else. Do I have to "walk a post" in order to be able to criticize? Either we have freedom of speech or we don't.
    The point is whether your criticism should have any weight. Should you be privy to bits and pieces and then render judgment that bears weight when you have no real framework from which to see or understand the whole?

  6. #16
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    Re: Is this famous movie quote generally correct?

    Quote Originally Posted by talloulou View Post
    I don't think you should kiss ass. However I do think there's something to be said for not being privy to everything when you weren't there and have little reference from which to judge.
    Of course, but that still doesn't somehow make my opinion invalid. From what I'm aware of from my perspective, it's completely valid. Just because I have little reference doesn't automatically mean that my opinion would change if I did have more reference. Obviously the only way I could have more of a reference point is to be in a similar situation and I don't see that happening anytime soon.

  7. #17
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    Re: Is this famous movie quote generally correct?

    Quote Originally Posted by talloulou View Post
    The point is whether your criticism should have any weight. Should you be privy to bits and pieces and then render judgment that bears weight when you have no real framework from which to see or understand the whole?
    I fully admit that my criticism carries little weight because I don't have the same exact reference as that person does.

  8. #18
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    Re: Is this famous movie quote generally correct?

    I can kind of understand the point though of the "walk the post" thing.

    Should we not be able to criticize? Not at all. HOWEVER, I think we need to all take a step back and understand that we criticize from an IGNORANT position...IE, we do not have the first hand knowledge of the situation that they are in and the ramifications of such.

    For example, an analogy.

    Lets say a doctor in the midst of a perhaps questionable surgery gone bad makes the call to take an extreme measure in trying to save the patients life rather than the conventional method, and the person ends up dieing.

    We, the layman with no medical experience, can criticize. That is our right. We can say that the surgery wasn't 100% "needed" so he shouldn't have done it. Or we could say he should not be taking such extreme measures. We could say he should not have risked the patients life on a whim, that it was unethical. We can criticize to our hearts content.

    But are we doing it from a truly educated point of view.

    However, we do not have the full knowledge of the situations nor the specific expertise to be an expert in it. Perhaps the surgery, while not needed, was likely the best chance for a full recovery instead of a life of constant hospital visits and that is why the patient elected to listen to the doctor. Perhaps the conventional method still would've had a good chance to fail, and even if succeeded caused further risks while the more "extreme" way gave a higher chance of failure but could potentially fix him completely if it was done. Perhaps the patient or their family had expressed the desire for the doctor to do all they could to cure him, not just to keep him alive, etc.

    We can criticize our military and law enforcement for the things they do. This is our rights as Americans. But it is also our DUTY as Americans to try and take a step back and accept our ignorance on some of these issues, recognize politicians attempts ON BOTH SIDES to turn things into a partisan issue rather than focus on the actual legitiamte facts, and to recognize that we do not know all the situations that go on in a world that is frankly alien to us. Its the same thing when Citizens criticize cops for how they use their weapons based on what "they would do" when they honestly don't know WHAT they'd do in reality because they never have, and likely never will, be in anywhere near a similar situation.

    I think its for these reasons its tantamount that we have good men and women in the top portions of our military, law enforcement, and portions of the legislature that oversee such things. There are often things in this world that are dark, cruel, and difficult and yet are needed or advantageous that, if left to the masses, would never happen. Is torture one of these things? That is debatable, but I think it definitly falls in the realm enough to be debated.

    Ultimately, for me, I think much of what our law enforcement and military does should be oversaw, but due to the nature of it I believe its best oversaw in a classified type of way where this information is for one, not out to the enemy, and two, not something that can be used by politicians to drive answers through emotion rather than logic and facts.
    You down with TPP?

  9. #19
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    Re: Is this famous movie quote generally correct?

    Quote Originally Posted by celticlord View Post
    Question: Are you willing to "walk a post," as challenged by Colonel Jessep?
    Been there, done that.

  10. #20
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    Re: Is this famous movie quote generally correct?

    Quote Originally Posted by dclxvinoise View Post
    No I'm not, but that certainly doesn't mean that my opinion doesn't matter just as much as anyone else. Do I have to "walk a post" in order to be able to criticize? Either we have freedom of speech or we don't.
    No, you don't have to "walk a post" just to be able to criticize.

    However, if we go beyond mere criticism and venture into formulating policy, not only justice and fairness but simple prudence demands that we ask of ourselves whether or not we could discharge that obligation ourselves, if the Colonel Jesseps were removed from their positions, or, alternatively, could we sustain the society we hold dear in the absence of that obligation being discharged. For all that one may plausibly find fault regarding the "Jessep" position, to what extent does it sustain and preserve our society?

    It is, if you will, an alternate take on Juvenal's famous question "Quis custōdiet ipsōs custōdēs?" Not so much "who watches the watchmen?" but "who is qualified to watch the watchmen?"

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