View Poll Results: Would You Utilize Torture to Save a Family Member?

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  • Yes

    61 80.26%
  • No

    15 19.74%
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Thread: Would You Utilize Torture to Save a Life?

  1. #391
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    Re: Would You Utilize Torture to Save a Life?

    I wouldn't blink if I were in a situation of "this guy has information that will save ANYONE's life and I was the only one able to act".

    I'd grab a few tools from my tool box and he'd either tell, or spend the rest of his life a miserable wreck.

    I'd start with a hammer, ballpeen type. Work on those fingers. That fails, I'd take a lamp, cut the cord and split the wires, then plug in the end... and brush him gently a few times.

    Failing that.. I'd get a spoon, and feed him an eyeball.

    Maybe his nuts as well.

    And I wouldn't feel guilty about it. AT ALL.
    C.T.L.W. You figure it out
    My Endo doc went over my blood work. "I see your estrogen level is now at 315, do you feel like you have too much Estrogen now?"
    I told her "... N... N.. No..." and started crying.


  2. #392
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    Re: Would You Utilize Torture to Save a Life?

    Thanks for sharing your deepest darkest love for doing violence upon others.

    I think.

  3. #393
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    Re: Would You Utilize Torture to Save a Life?

    Quote Originally Posted by Tucker Case View Post
    He gets a lawyer, clams up, doesn't give away anything and your family dies.

    Anyone with half a brain who has ever been arrested knows better than to say anything to the police, even if you are innocent.
    That doesn't address the possibility that the captive has known accomplices.

    I've been arrested a few times. The truth never hurt me, then again I'm not a vigilante.
    “We must picture hell as a state where everyone is perpetually concerned about his own dignity and advancement, where everyone has a grievance, and where everyone lives with the deadly serious passions of envy, self-importance, and resentment.”
    ― C.S. Lewis, The Screwtape Letters

  4. #394
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    Re: Would You Utilize Torture to Save a Life?

    Quote Originally Posted by Glinda View Post
    *snicker* You just blew your "Let's just torture 'em till they give us what we want" position right out of the water.
    Two points:

    1. How have I damaged any arguments that I have made in this thread? Cops have to allow a detainee Miranda rights. They can't torture the info out of them because they are confined by the laws and it must be assumed that they won't be willing to break them in order to save my family.

    I on the other hand, would risk everything to save my family. I'd willfully break any law in order to do so.



    2. I believe that a proscription on police and all government officials form engaging in torture is correct. I support the laws that prevent police officers from using torture. The point I'm making is that in the given hypothetical I would utilize torture. Personally. As in a free citizen, not associated with the government, breaking the laws of the nation in order to achieve a goal.

    I would also willingly accept any and all legal ramifications that would stem from that action. Since I have never argued for the "legalization" of torture, I haven't done anything that contradicts my position in any way shape or form.



    Before you make claims that a person has "blown away" their own argument in the future, make damned sure that you yourself have the capacity to comprehend their argument. It makes you look foolish to claim victory before even achieving understanding of their position. It also makes you prone to creating strawmen as you have in the above quote by erroneously claiming my position as "Let's just torture 'em till they give us what we want".

    Two major problems with that comment are as follows:

    "Let's": (as in "let us"). This is plural. It implies that I support an organized form of torture. All of my comments have been solely what I would do myself if faced with the given hypothetical. Use of the plural pronoun "us" is inaccurate here because I do not support organized torture.

    "just": Implies that the hypothetical did not limit torture as the last resort, although it did. Using just implies that I would resort to this instead of another method before hand. This is not true. I would only resort to torture if no other viable options existed, and again, that would be something I would do myself if I were faced with the given hypothetical.

    All in all, you have done nothing to show thta I have contradicted yourself, but you have definitely destroyed your straw man. Congratulations.

    Next, you may take on the tin man. I'll take out the cowardly lion and Dorothy. Together, we'll clean up Oz for good!


    Doesn't this apply to Gitmo detainees as well? And since it of course does, torturing those detainees will produce NOTHING.

    Flawed logic. What I had said was that the fact that the police are legally prevented from using certain techniques to get the information, no information would be gotten. At no point have I stated that torture doesn't work.

    If anything, the above statement of "Doesn't this apply to gitmo detainees as well?" indicates that legally preventing the government from torturing detainees (which is the reality that applies to police that I was pointing out) will prevent there form being any actionable intel because the gitmo detainees will clam up and use a lawyer.

    In other words, you have just contradicted YOUR position because you failed to understand MY position.

    My position is that the individual may be able to legitimately conclude that torture is moral under certain circumstances, but that the powers of the government should still be limited such so that it is banned from using torture in any circumstance.

  5. #395
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    Re: Would You Utilize Torture to Save a Life?

    Quote Originally Posted by Saboteur View Post
    That doesn't address the possibility that the captive has known accomplices.
    Having accomplices in other activities does not mean that there exists one in this activity. Even then, now that you know that he has had "accomplices" in other situations, what next? Search for them?

    I've been arrested a few times. The truth never hurt me, then again I'm not a vigilante.

    You've been lucky. I was arrested for defending someone who was being attacked by multiple people because I mentioned that I threw a punch at one of the attackers. Perhaps I should have just called the cops and sat back and watched while the guy got beaten to death while waiting for the cops to get there so that I wasn't acting as a "vigilante".

  6. #396
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    Re: Would You Utilize Torture to Save a Life?

    Quote Originally Posted by Glinda View Post
    Thanks for sharing your deepest darkest love for doing violence upon others.

    I think.
    Really?

    That's what you took away from that? Amazing.

    I am the gentlest of souls. However, I am also unwavering in my belief that innocent people, deserve the right not to be harmed by scumbags. And if it takes causing them pain and agony to prevent it....

    THEY VOLUNTEERED FOR SUCH TREATMENT BY CHOOSING TO BE TERRORIST ****BAGS, GOT IT?
    C.T.L.W. You figure it out
    My Endo doc went over my blood work. "I see your estrogen level is now at 315, do you feel like you have too much Estrogen now?"
    I told her "... N... N.. No..." and started crying.


  7. #397
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    Re: Would You Utilize Torture to Save a Life?

    Quote Originally Posted by MrVicchio View Post
    I am the gentlest of souls.
    Your previous post indicates otherwise.

    Quote Originally Posted by MrVicchio View Post
    However, I am also unwavering in my belief that innocent people, deserve the right not to be harmed by scumbags.
    I share that belief.

    Quote Originally Posted by MrVicchio View Post
    And if it takes causing them pain and agony to prevent it....
    Here's where we part ways. Unlike you, I believe in the rule of law. Since you clearly do not, I suggest you move to North Korea where you will surely be much happier.

  8. #398
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    Re: Would You Utilize Torture to Save a Life?

    [quote=Tucker Case;1058022532]
    Having accomplices in other activities does not mean that there exists one in this activity. Even then, now that you know that he has had "accomplices" in other situations, what next? Search for them?
    Fine don't call the police, waste time torturing out the myriad names and locations your prisoner might give you.


    You've been lucky. I was arrested for defending someone who was being attacked by multiple people because I mentioned that I threw a punch at one of the attackers. Perhaps I should have just called the cops and sat back and watched while the guy got beaten to death while waiting for the cops to get there so that I wasn't acting as a "vigilante".
    I'll bet everything turned out fine for you.
    “We must picture hell as a state where everyone is perpetually concerned about his own dignity and advancement, where everyone has a grievance, and where everyone lives with the deadly serious passions of envy, self-importance, and resentment.”
    ― C.S. Lewis, The Screwtape Letters

  9. #399
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    Re: Would You Utilize Torture to Save a Life?

    Quote Originally Posted by Glinda View Post
    Your previous post indicates otherwise.



    I share that belief.



    Here's where we part ways. Unlike you, I believe in the rule of law. Since you clearly do not, I suggest you move to North Korea where you will surely be much happier.
    Move to NK? Seriously? You pulled that card on me?


    The thing is, if I were in the situation of having the bad guy in my custody, and I had to break his knee cap to save YOUR life, I'd do it.


    Reverse the situation, my kids would go to my funeral. And you consider yourself morally better then I am?

    I think you're a coward, and people like you scare me.
    C.T.L.W. You figure it out
    My Endo doc went over my blood work. "I see your estrogen level is now at 315, do you feel like you have too much Estrogen now?"
    I told her "... N... N.. No..." and started crying.


  10. #400
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    Re: Would You Utilize Torture to Save a Life?

    Quote Originally Posted by Tucker Case View Post
    Two points: blah blah blah blah
    Face it, guy. You shot yourself in your own foot by stating that only a fool would admit anything to their captors.

    Quote Originally Posted by Tucker Case View Post
    They can't torture the info out of them because they are confined by the laws
    Hello? WE as a nation are "confined by the laws" to which we have signed our name. Torture is prohibited under US law and under international law. That includes our government, our police force, and you as an individual.

    Quote Originally Posted by Tucker Case View Post
    and it must be assumed that they won't be willing to break them in order to save my family.
    So you'll do it for them? What happened to being "confined by the laws" we as a nation have agreed to uphold?

    Quote Originally Posted by Tucker Case View Post
    I on the other hand, would risk everything to save my family. I'd willfully break any law in order to do so.
    Self defense is one thing; tying someone up and beating them for any reason is against the law.

    Quote Originally Posted by Tucker Case View Post
    The point I'm making is that in the given hypothetical I would utilize torture. Personally. As in a free citizen, not associated with the government, breaking the laws of the nation in order to achieve a goal.
    I guess you're much more violent than I am, and put much less value on the rule of law than I do.

    I would also willingly accept any and all legal ramifications that would stem from that action.
    Ah. Good. If you ever tried doing what you've claimed you're more than willing to do, you'd be tried, convicted, and executed. As you should be.

    My position is that the individual may be able to legitimately conclude that torture is moral under certain circumstances, but that the powers of the government should still be limited such so that it is banned from using torture in any circumstance.
    You're attempting to argue both sides of the question: I'll do what I want/feel I must, up to and including torture, but our nation must never allow torture under any circumstances.

    How about picking one side and sticking with it?

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