View Poll Results: Would You Utilize Torture to Save a Family Member?

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    61 80.26%
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Thread: Would You Utilize Torture to Save a Life?

  1. #261
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    Re: Would You Utilize Torture to Save a Life?

    Quote Originally Posted by Felicity View Post
    And again, your very statement contradicts your very statement.
    Not at all.
    "Never fear. Him is here" - Captain Chaos (Dom DeLuise), Cannonball Run

    Mace Windu: Then our worst fears have been realized. We must move quickly if the Jedi Order is to survive.

    ====||:-D

    Quote Originally Posted by Wiseone View Post
    This is what I hate about politics the most, it turns people in snobbish egotistical self righteous dicks who allow their political beliefs, partisan attitudes, and 'us vs. them' mentality, to force them to deny reality.

    Quote Originally Posted by Navy Pride View Post
    You can't paint everone with the same brush.......It does not work tht way.


    Quote Originally Posted by Wessexman View Post
    See with you around Captain we don't even have to make arguments, as you already know everything .
    Quote Originally Posted by CriticalThought View Post
    Had you been born elsewhere or at a different time you may very well have chosen a different belief system.
    Quote Originally Posted by ernst barkmann View Post
    It a person has faith they dont need to convince another of it, and when a non believer is not interested in listening to the word of the lord, " you shake the dust from your sandels and move on"

  2. #262
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    Re: Would You Utilize Torture to Save a Life?

    Quote Originally Posted by Wessexman View Post
    Aren't you Jewish(as in religiously.)?
    I'm not sure what this has to do with this discussion.

    Absolutes or universals narrow the possibilities but far from completely. If one takes the view that such things are refracted through the human mind and society through a complex web of material circumstances where one must still make decisions, influenced but not decided by his reliance on these concepts, then there is still a large scope for moral searchings. The scope has it limits but it is far from black and white.
    This sounds like you are agreeing with me, not disagreeing. You are not speaking of absolutes, above.
    "Never fear. Him is here" - Captain Chaos (Dom DeLuise), Cannonball Run

    Mace Windu: Then our worst fears have been realized. We must move quickly if the Jedi Order is to survive.

    ====||:-D

    Quote Originally Posted by Wiseone View Post
    This is what I hate about politics the most, it turns people in snobbish egotistical self righteous dicks who allow their political beliefs, partisan attitudes, and 'us vs. them' mentality, to force them to deny reality.

    Quote Originally Posted by Navy Pride View Post
    You can't paint everone with the same brush.......It does not work tht way.


    Quote Originally Posted by Wessexman View Post
    See with you around Captain we don't even have to make arguments, as you already know everything .
    Quote Originally Posted by CriticalThought View Post
    Had you been born elsewhere or at a different time you may very well have chosen a different belief system.
    Quote Originally Posted by ernst barkmann View Post
    It a person has faith they dont need to convince another of it, and when a non believer is not interested in listening to the word of the lord, " you shake the dust from your sandels and move on"

  3. #263
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    Re: Would You Utilize Torture to Save a Life?

    Quote Originally Posted by CaptainCourtesy View Post
    I'm not sure what this has to do with this discussion.
    I just thought your moral ideas were a little strange for Judaism.


    This sounds like you are agreeing with me, not disagreeing. You are not speaking of absolutes, above.
    I'm talking about absolutes in terms of universals in the Platonic, idealist sense. I'm saying the existence of such absolutes may narrow the playing field but it is still far from black and white or overlly narrow.

    Perhaps you didn't mean absolutes in that sense.
    "It is written in the eternal constitution that men of intemperate minds cannot be free. Their passions forge their fetters." - Edmund Burke

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    Re: Would You Utilize Torture to Save a Life?

    Quote Originally Posted by Wessexman View Post
    I just thought your moral ideas were a little strange for Judaism.
    I'm a Reform Jew with a serious conservative lean. However, I am also a moral relativist. I don't find a lot of conflict with these positions.

    I'm talking about absolutes in terms of universals in the Platonic, idealist sense. I'm saying the existence of such absolutes may narrow the playing field but it is still far from black and white or overlly narrow.

    Perhaps you didn't mean absolutes in that sense.
    I am discussing absolutes from a purely moralistic and situation standpoint. Practically nothing is always good; practically nothing is always bad.
    "Never fear. Him is here" - Captain Chaos (Dom DeLuise), Cannonball Run

    Mace Windu: Then our worst fears have been realized. We must move quickly if the Jedi Order is to survive.

    ====||:-D

    Quote Originally Posted by Wiseone View Post
    This is what I hate about politics the most, it turns people in snobbish egotistical self righteous dicks who allow their political beliefs, partisan attitudes, and 'us vs. them' mentality, to force them to deny reality.

    Quote Originally Posted by Navy Pride View Post
    You can't paint everone with the same brush.......It does not work tht way.


    Quote Originally Posted by Wessexman View Post
    See with you around Captain we don't even have to make arguments, as you already know everything .
    Quote Originally Posted by CriticalThought View Post
    Had you been born elsewhere or at a different time you may very well have chosen a different belief system.
    Quote Originally Posted by ernst barkmann View Post
    It a person has faith they dont need to convince another of it, and when a non believer is not interested in listening to the word of the lord, " you shake the dust from your sandels and move on"

  5. #265
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    Re: Would You Utilize Torture to Save a Life?

    Quote Originally Posted by CaptainCourtesy View Post
    I'm a Reform Jew with a serious conservative lean. However, I am also a moral relativist. I don't find a lot of conflict with these positions.
    By relativism do you mean a rejuection of things like good and evil, right and wrong completely or simply that they are very complex thing that must be refracted in the material world and always depend on situation and context? I'm just saying you don't have to reject absolutes or universals to belief that latter.


    I am discussing absolutes from a purely moralistic and situation standpoint. Practically nothing is always good; practically nothing is always bad.
    Well of that I'm not 100% in agreement but I agree it is generally the case.
    "It is written in the eternal constitution that men of intemperate minds cannot be free. Their passions forge their fetters." - Edmund Burke

  6. #266
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    Re: Would You Utilize Torture to Save a Life?

    Quote Originally Posted by Wessexman View Post
    By relativism do you mean a rejection of things like good and evil, right and wrong completely or simply that they are very complex thing that must be refracted in the material world and always depend on situation and context? I'm just saying you don't have to reject absolutes or universals to belief that latter.
    I reject that good or evil are simple terms that always apply to a thing, that they are complex terms that are reliant on the situation, context and the beings involved in determining where they exist on a spectrum.

    And as far as I see it, most absolutes are incongruent with the above view.


    Well of that I'm not 100% in agreement but I agree it is generally the case.
    Notice my use of the word "practically". In accordance with my view of relativity, it would be incongruent to believe that nothing was absolute. That would be an absolute statement.
    "Never fear. Him is here" - Captain Chaos (Dom DeLuise), Cannonball Run

    Mace Windu: Then our worst fears have been realized. We must move quickly if the Jedi Order is to survive.

    ====||:-D

    Quote Originally Posted by Wiseone View Post
    This is what I hate about politics the most, it turns people in snobbish egotistical self righteous dicks who allow their political beliefs, partisan attitudes, and 'us vs. them' mentality, to force them to deny reality.

    Quote Originally Posted by Navy Pride View Post
    You can't paint everone with the same brush.......It does not work tht way.


    Quote Originally Posted by Wessexman View Post
    See with you around Captain we don't even have to make arguments, as you already know everything .
    Quote Originally Posted by CriticalThought View Post
    Had you been born elsewhere or at a different time you may very well have chosen a different belief system.
    Quote Originally Posted by ernst barkmann View Post
    It a person has faith they dont need to convince another of it, and when a non believer is not interested in listening to the word of the lord, " you shake the dust from your sandels and move on"

  7. #267
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    Re: Would You Utilize Torture to Save a Life?

    Quote Originally Posted by CaptainCourtesy View Post
    I reject that good or evil are simple terms that always apply to a thing, that they are complex terms that are reliant on the situation, context and the beings involved in determining where they exist on a spectrum.

    And as far as I see it, most absolutes are incongruent with the above view.




    Notice my use of the word "practically". In accordance with my view of relativity, it would be incongruent to believe that nothing was absolute. That would be an absolute statement.
    I'm still a bit confused though. Are you saying there is no good and evil or that these exist but in the material world they need to be complexly discerned in grey contexts and that they usually don't always apply to an act?

    I think there is a good and evil, or at least good, but otherwise largely agree with you. In general it is very hard to make simple, absolutist statements but that doesn't mean, imho, that universals don't exist.
    "It is written in the eternal constitution that men of intemperate minds cannot be free. Their passions forge their fetters." - Edmund Burke

  8. #268
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    Re: Would You Utilize Torture to Save a Life?

    Quote Originally Posted by Wessexman View Post
    I'm still a bit confused though. Are you saying there is no good and evil or that these exist but in the material world they need to be complexly discerned in grey contexts and that they usually don't always apply to an act?
    Good and evil exist but rely on the context of the situation and the participants involved. The same situation can have different contexts, or different contexts based on the participants, and, therefore have different moral definitions. Also, good and evil are not absolutes, but are on a continuum.

    I think there is a good and evil, or at least good, but otherwise largely agree with you. In general it is very hard to make simple, absolutist statements but that doesn't mean, imho, that universals don't exist.
    I can agree with you, here.
    "Never fear. Him is here" - Captain Chaos (Dom DeLuise), Cannonball Run

    Mace Windu: Then our worst fears have been realized. We must move quickly if the Jedi Order is to survive.

    ====||:-D

    Quote Originally Posted by Wiseone View Post
    This is what I hate about politics the most, it turns people in snobbish egotistical self righteous dicks who allow their political beliefs, partisan attitudes, and 'us vs. them' mentality, to force them to deny reality.

    Quote Originally Posted by Navy Pride View Post
    You can't paint everone with the same brush.......It does not work tht way.


    Quote Originally Posted by Wessexman View Post
    See with you around Captain we don't even have to make arguments, as you already know everything .
    Quote Originally Posted by CriticalThought View Post
    Had you been born elsewhere or at a different time you may very well have chosen a different belief system.
    Quote Originally Posted by ernst barkmann View Post
    It a person has faith they dont need to convince another of it, and when a non believer is not interested in listening to the word of the lord, " you shake the dust from your sandels and move on"

  9. #269
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    Re: Would You Utilize Torture to Save a Life?

    Quote Originally Posted by CaptainCourtesy View Post
    Also, good and evil are not absolutes, but are on a continuum.

    .
    What is at either end of that continuum?


    You asked what I meant by Benevolence/good/altruism being the absolute....It's at one end of that continuum.

    There is a third portion to this that you did not mention: perception. One's intent is relevant. The circumstances of the comment are relevant. Also, the receiver's perception of the comment is relevant.
    NOT, however to the act in and of itself. The act itself and it's intention and context are the only things that can be considered when determining the moral value (I use "value" and "weight" for lack of a better word--maybe "quality" would be better).

    The perception of the act is separate and relies on a whole different set of circumstances that are variable depending upon the one forming the perception.

    With these three variables, the meanness of the comment is relative and based on specific situations based on these three variables.
    The "sender" of the message can only be responsible to the intent and circumstances--"meanness" wholly relies upon intent. One cannot be "mean" by accident. One can be cavalier or thoughtless, but not "mean."

    Though they may be separate to some extent, they are also intertwined and cannot be completely separated.
    Why? They are two different things. One is a conscious act, the other is a perception.

    If I call you a "jerk" all those variables must be considered, and there is no absolute determination as to whether that comment was mean or not.
    If your intention was to make a light joke in an appropriate circumstance, intending it to be received as such, you are not being "mean" when you call me a jerk. "Mean" denotes an intention.

  10. #270
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    Re: Would You Utilize Torture to Save a Life?

    Quote Originally Posted by Felicity View Post
    What is at either end of that continuum?
    Ultimate good and ultimate evil. Best defined by + ∞ and -
    ∞. Always approaching but nearly never reaching.



    You asked what I meant by Benevolence/good/altruism being the absolute....It's at one end of that continuum.
    Seems similar to what I said above.

    NOT, however to the act in and of itself. The act itself and it's intention and context are the only things that can be considered when determining the moral value (I use "value" and "weight" for lack of a better word--maybe "quality" would be better).

    The perception of the act is separate and relies on a whole different set of circumstances that are variable depending upon the one forming the perception.
    The whole constitutes the relative morality of the situation. If I my perception of the situation is different from yours, and you are the initiator, my perception is as relevant as yours to the morality of the situation. I am part of the scenario and am part of the context. This cannot be separated out.

    The "sender" of the message can only be responsible to the intent and circumstances--"meanness" wholly relies upon intent. One cannot be "mean" by accident. One can be cavalier or thoughtless, but not "mean."
    No, the receiver also has a hand in the context. If you are being mean, but I do not perceive it that way, the message is NOT universally mean. Both parts, and the third, the situation, have a part in the relative morality of the act.

    Why? They are two different things. One is a conscious act, the other is a perception.
    Both assess the morality of the situation or act. Therefore both have influence and negate universality.

    If your intention was to make a light joke in an appropriate circumstance, intending it to be received as such, you are not being "mean" when you call me a jerk. "Mean" denotes an intention.
    If I am more sensitive than you and perceive the same thing as being mean, the outcome is different. My perception alters the morality of your comment and makes it mean...to me.
    "Never fear. Him is here" - Captain Chaos (Dom DeLuise), Cannonball Run

    Mace Windu: Then our worst fears have been realized. We must move quickly if the Jedi Order is to survive.

    ====||:-D

    Quote Originally Posted by Wiseone View Post
    This is what I hate about politics the most, it turns people in snobbish egotistical self righteous dicks who allow their political beliefs, partisan attitudes, and 'us vs. them' mentality, to force them to deny reality.

    Quote Originally Posted by Navy Pride View Post
    You can't paint everone with the same brush.......It does not work tht way.


    Quote Originally Posted by Wessexman View Post
    See with you around Captain we don't even have to make arguments, as you already know everything .
    Quote Originally Posted by CriticalThought View Post
    Had you been born elsewhere or at a different time you may very well have chosen a different belief system.
    Quote Originally Posted by ernst barkmann View Post
    It a person has faith they dont need to convince another of it, and when a non believer is not interested in listening to the word of the lord, " you shake the dust from your sandels and move on"

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