View Poll Results: Would You Utilize Torture to Save a Family Member?

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  • Yes

    61 80.26%
  • No

    15 19.74%
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Thread: Would You Utilize Torture to Save a Life?

  1. #231
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    Re: Would You Utilize Torture to Save a Life?

    Quote Originally Posted by celticlord View Post
    Hardly. You are conflating "absolute" with "fixed".

    Within any one perspective, right and wrong are most assuredly absolute. Even when we acknowledge that a deed has both good and bad attributes, we still apply the absolutes of "good" and "bad", merely at a more granular scale; we say that merit "A" is "good" and demerit "B" is "bad", but we do not say either is simultaneously "good" and "bad". Good/bad, right/wrong, these value determinations are invariably absolute in their application, regardless of the granularity of the application.

    Disagreement arises because what you deem "bad" others may deem "good" and vice versa. Another person's application of the absolutes is oriented differently from your own. That shift in perspective, however, is not a dilution of the absolutes, merely a rearranging of them.

    Your black and my white do not unite to make gray. Your black remains black, my white remains white--each absolute to our own relative perspectives.
    I see your point.

    The thing is, anything, when taken as a whole, including all perspectives, will be gray.

    Is torture right or wrong? Well, as a whole, it may be gray, but each individual case will either be black or white.


    For example, my views:

    Is it wrong to torture a person for no reason? Yes. That's always wrong.

    Is it wrong to torture a person if you know that torturing them may save a life? Depends on all the circumstances, but this can go either way. Each individual case of torture will either be white or black. It'll probably lean toward not wrong more often than not for me individually.

    Is it wrong to torture someone who raped and murdered your child? No, not in my worldview. To me, that torture is always "white".

    To the topic of "torture" is overall gray, but individual cases are going to be black or white every time.

  2. #232
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    Re: Would You Utilize Torture to Save a Life?

    Quote Originally Posted by Ethereal View Post
    Perhaps, perhaps not. The point is this: When the mind was previously "whole" it was completely unwilling to forfeit any information, otherwise "torture" would've been unnecessary; so, as previously stated, such a dichotomy is contextually irrelevant.
    Why is torture the only way to getting the information?
    Are we still talking about the OP? Because I stopped addressing the OP a while ago, since the thread has evolved into something else.

    Are you suggesting they will somehow forget or neglect crucial pieces of information because they are under duress? I don't see this as being likely and even though it is a possibility - not a guarantee - it's a price our intelligence operatives were willing to pay, therefore I am inclined to trust their expertise on the matter over uninformed speculation.
    Not just forget or neglect, but also create things that were never true (unintentionally). This is characteristic of those who have certain mental instability.

    Now concerning whether I would trust these experts, depends on the level of corruption that is present. As history has shown us, it's not all that trustworthy.
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  3. #233
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    Re: Would You Utilize Torture to Save a Life?

    Quote Originally Posted by celticlord View Post
    Hardly. You are conflating "absolute" with "fixed".

    Within any one perspective, right and wrong are most assuredly absolute. Even when we acknowledge that a deed has both good and bad attributes, we still apply the absolutes of "good" and "bad", merely at a more granular scale; we say that merit "A" is "good" and demerit "B" is "bad", but we do not say either is simultaneously "good" and "bad". Good/bad, right/wrong, these value determinations are invariably absolute in their application, regardless of the granularity of the application.

    Disagreement arises because what you deem "bad" others may deem "good" and vice versa. Another person's application of the absolutes is oriented differently from your own. That shift in perspective, however, is not a dilution of the absolutes, merely a rearranging of them.

    Your black and my white do not unite to make gray. Your black remains black, my white remains white--each absolute to our own relative perspectives.
    And as soon as you use the word "relative" you denote shades of gray. I am looking at this globally, not individually. I may have a belief of what is right. That does not make it right, globally. That's where the shade of gray steps in. If you believe that your right it right for you, I have no argument with you. If you believe your right is a universal right, your thinking is very narrow and can be proven wrong quite easily. Perhaps we are discussing different things. I am talking about universal truths of morality, which I view as mostly non-existent. You seem to be identifying, now, individual truths, which, though I still believe are relative, situationally, more easily make sense.
    "Never fear. Him is here" - Captain Chaos (Dom DeLuise), Cannonball Run

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    Quote Originally Posted by Wiseone View Post
    This is what I hate about politics the most, it turns people in snobbish egotistical self righteous dicks who allow their political beliefs, partisan attitudes, and 'us vs. them' mentality, to force them to deny reality.

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    You can't paint everone with the same brush.......It does not work tht way.


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    See with you around Captain we don't even have to make arguments, as you already know everything .
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    Had you been born elsewhere or at a different time you may very well have chosen a different belief system.
    Quote Originally Posted by ernst barkmann View Post
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  4. #234
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    Re: Would You Utilize Torture to Save a Life?

    Quote Originally Posted by Felicity View Post
    One can assert there is absolute good, and anything not absolute good is some gradation of "not good." That is absolutist, but not narrow-minded. To assume that absolutist positions MUST be narrow-minded is narrow-minded and commits the error that you're condemning.
    I do not subscribe to there being any absolute good or absolute not good. Absolutes, on a universal scale, eliminate possibilities and prevent the potential for considering options. They are most certainly narrow minded.
    "Never fear. Him is here" - Captain Chaos (Dom DeLuise), Cannonball Run

    Mace Windu: Then our worst fears have been realized. We must move quickly if the Jedi Order is to survive.

    ====||:-D

    Quote Originally Posted by Wiseone View Post
    This is what I hate about politics the most, it turns people in snobbish egotistical self righteous dicks who allow their political beliefs, partisan attitudes, and 'us vs. them' mentality, to force them to deny reality.

    Quote Originally Posted by Navy Pride View Post
    You can't paint everone with the same brush.......It does not work tht way.


    Quote Originally Posted by Wessexman View Post
    See with you around Captain we don't even have to make arguments, as you already know everything .
    Quote Originally Posted by CriticalThought View Post
    Had you been born elsewhere or at a different time you may very well have chosen a different belief system.
    Quote Originally Posted by ernst barkmann View Post
    It a person has faith they dont need to convince another of it, and when a non believer is not interested in listening to the word of the lord, " you shake the dust from your sandels and move on"

  5. #235
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    Re: Would You Utilize Torture to Save a Life?

    Quote Originally Posted by Tucker Case View Post


    I was going to point out that the statement "There are no absolutes" is paradox because it is, itself, an absolute.

    The thing is, most of the time there are shades of gray, but sometimes there are absolutes.

    For example, the answer to the question underneath my name is an absolute. "No, farts absolutely do not have chunks."

    True complexity of thought realizes that not everything is an absolute, but not everything has shades of gray either. The trick is accurately determining which issues fit which category.

    Most people, including myself, fail at this trick.
    When I am discussing absolutes, I am discussing morals, positions, and perceptions. Certain facts of matter and science are not included. I suppose farts would fall in this latter category.
    "Never fear. Him is here" - Captain Chaos (Dom DeLuise), Cannonball Run

    Mace Windu: Then our worst fears have been realized. We must move quickly if the Jedi Order is to survive.

    ====||:-D

    Quote Originally Posted by Wiseone View Post
    This is what I hate about politics the most, it turns people in snobbish egotistical self righteous dicks who allow their political beliefs, partisan attitudes, and 'us vs. them' mentality, to force them to deny reality.

    Quote Originally Posted by Navy Pride View Post
    You can't paint everone with the same brush.......It does not work tht way.


    Quote Originally Posted by Wessexman View Post
    See with you around Captain we don't even have to make arguments, as you already know everything .
    Quote Originally Posted by CriticalThought View Post
    Had you been born elsewhere or at a different time you may very well have chosen a different belief system.
    Quote Originally Posted by ernst barkmann View Post
    It a person has faith they dont need to convince another of it, and when a non believer is not interested in listening to the word of the lord, " you shake the dust from your sandels and move on"

  6. #236
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    Re: Would You Utilize Torture to Save a Life?

    Quote Originally Posted by American View Post
    Have you ever heard of the Natural Law? The basic premise that right and wrong become somewhat obvious by experience and by consensus of many people over broad regions. For instance the Natural Law can explain the universal belief that murder is wrong. Some may even say it is obvious. That is why most grown humans have a basic knowledge of right and wrong. We're not speaking of what they do, but what they know. When a man robs a liquor store, he's know it's wrong. When a man says something mean to a friend, he knows it's wrong. If I call you an asshole, you don't feel cheered up, because your natural feelings tell you something is wrong. The Natural Law thus explains why a man has a right to live and to be free, because people know instinctively that murder is wrong and so is captivity or servitude. Even the Founders understand, though they did it, that slavery was wrong.

    Murder is defined as the illegal killing of a human being.
    Of course I've heard of Natural Law. I reject it as being absolute. Let's use one of your examples. "When a man says something mean to a friend, he knows it's wrong." Not necessarily. The comment, though mean, may be necessary in order to help the friend. Therefore, though mean, the comment is not wrong.
    "Never fear. Him is here" - Captain Chaos (Dom DeLuise), Cannonball Run

    Mace Windu: Then our worst fears have been realized. We must move quickly if the Jedi Order is to survive.

    ====||:-D

    Quote Originally Posted by Wiseone View Post
    This is what I hate about politics the most, it turns people in snobbish egotistical self righteous dicks who allow their political beliefs, partisan attitudes, and 'us vs. them' mentality, to force them to deny reality.

    Quote Originally Posted by Navy Pride View Post
    You can't paint everone with the same brush.......It does not work tht way.


    Quote Originally Posted by Wessexman View Post
    See with you around Captain we don't even have to make arguments, as you already know everything .
    Quote Originally Posted by CriticalThought View Post
    Had you been born elsewhere or at a different time you may very well have chosen a different belief system.
    Quote Originally Posted by ernst barkmann View Post
    It a person has faith they dont need to convince another of it, and when a non believer is not interested in listening to the word of the lord, " you shake the dust from your sandels and move on"

  7. #237
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    Re: Would You Utilize Torture to Save a Life?

    Quote Originally Posted by CaptainCourtesy View Post
    Of course I've heard of Natural Law. I reject it as being absolute. Let's use one of your examples. "When a man says something mean to a friend, he knows it's wrong." Not necessarily. The comment, though mean, may be necessary in order to help the friend. Therefore, though mean, the comment is not wrong.
    The intention is seperate from the action in and of itself. A comment that might be viewed as "mean" in and of itself, may have a purely loving intent in and of itself. Therefore, the comment sans circumstance lacks a moral weight. The circumstance and intention of the speaker are what influence the morality. If the intention is benevolence and the circumstance appropriate to that intention, the comment is not "mean."


    Good/benevolence/altruism is the absolute in and of itself.

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    Re: Would You Utilize Torture to Save a Life?

    Quote Originally Posted by CaptainCourtesy View Post
    I do not subscribe to there being any absolute good or absolute not good. Absolutes, on a universal scale, eliminate possibilities and prevent the potential for considering options. They are most certainly narrow minded.
    And again, your very statement contradicts your very statement.

  9. #239
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    Re: Would You Utilize Torture to Save a Life?

    The topic title question presupposes that you would be guaranteed that you would be torturing the right person & that you would be guaranteed that you would get the answers you need to save a life....If the suppositions were both true, I don't think anyone would be against using torture personally to save a life.
    Problem is, in the real world, such guarantees don't exist & there is a better chance that the person you torture may not have the info in the first place; that he won't tell you the truth anyway, or that you may have been able to get the same info by outsmarting him, without resorting to torture.

    Another factor is I may personally be willing to do things (to save a loved one, etc) that I DON'T want my country doing as a matter of state policy.
    Example: If I think my wife is cheating on me, I may listen in on her phone calls. I sure as hell don't want our government doing that, without a court order though! (like the did under Bush's USA Patriot Act anyway)

  10. #240
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    Re: Would You Utilize Torture to Save a Life?

    Quote Originally Posted by Devil505 View Post
    Another factor is I may personally be willing to do things (to save a loved one, etc) that I DON'T want my country doing as a matter of state policy.
    This is a very good point. My personal choice and freedom is not totally equated to my government's choices and freedoms. Just because we can make those choices, doesn't mean the government can make those choices.
    Quote Originally Posted by UtahBill View Post
    Let the public school provide the basics, you as the parent can do the fine tuning.

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