View Poll Results: Would You Utilize Torture to Save a Family Member?

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  • Yes

    61 80.26%
  • No

    15 19.74%
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Thread: Would You Utilize Torture to Save a Life?

  1. #221
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    Re: Would You Utilize Torture to Save a Life?

    Quote Originally Posted by celticlord View Post
    Why is it so difficult to grasp that there can be right, and there can be wrong, and there can be no third alternative?
    The fact that what you think is right, may not be right to others proves you wrong.
    "Never fear. Him is here" - Captain Chaos (Dom DeLuise), Cannonball Run

    Mace Windu: Then our worst fears have been realized. We must move quickly if the Jedi Order is to survive.

    ====||:-D

    Quote Originally Posted by Wiseone View Post
    This is what I hate about politics the most, it turns people in snobbish egotistical self righteous dicks who allow their political beliefs, partisan attitudes, and 'us vs. them' mentality, to force them to deny reality.

    Quote Originally Posted by Navy Pride View Post
    You can't paint everone with the same brush.......It does not work tht way.


    Quote Originally Posted by Wessexman View Post
    See with you around Captain we don't even have to make arguments, as you already know everything .
    Quote Originally Posted by CriticalThought View Post
    Had you been born elsewhere or at a different time you may very well have chosen a different belief system.
    Quote Originally Posted by ernst barkmann View Post
    It a person has faith they dont need to convince another of it, and when a non believer is not interested in listening to the word of the lord, " you shake the dust from your sandels and move on"

  2. #222
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    Re: Would You Utilize Torture to Save a Life?

    Quote Originally Posted by CaptainCourtesy View Post
    The fact that what you think is right, may not be right to others proves you wrong.
    No it does not. It merely means you are not me.

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    Re: Would You Utilize Torture to Save a Life?

    Quote Originally Posted by celticlord View Post
    No it does not. It merely means you are not me.
    Which shows that "right" is relative, not absolute. Not black or white, a shade of gray. Proves you wrong.
    "Never fear. Him is here" - Captain Chaos (Dom DeLuise), Cannonball Run

    Mace Windu: Then our worst fears have been realized. We must move quickly if the Jedi Order is to survive.

    ====||:-D

    Quote Originally Posted by Wiseone View Post
    This is what I hate about politics the most, it turns people in snobbish egotistical self righteous dicks who allow their political beliefs, partisan attitudes, and 'us vs. them' mentality, to force them to deny reality.

    Quote Originally Posted by Navy Pride View Post
    You can't paint everone with the same brush.......It does not work tht way.


    Quote Originally Posted by Wessexman View Post
    See with you around Captain we don't even have to make arguments, as you already know everything .
    Quote Originally Posted by CriticalThought View Post
    Had you been born elsewhere or at a different time you may very well have chosen a different belief system.
    Quote Originally Posted by ernst barkmann View Post
    It a person has faith they dont need to convince another of it, and when a non believer is not interested in listening to the word of the lord, " you shake the dust from your sandels and move on"

  4. #224
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    Re: Would You Utilize Torture to Save a Life?

    One does not even have to say that there is no absolute right or wrong to realise that there is a relativist or grey area involved. One can say that those things are universals that have to be refracted through the human mind and given shape in a complex material world. This is why I warned Celticlord about simplistic reasoning over morality and pointed him towards Shakespeare.

    I still feel there are few things that can show the complexity of morals, while still maintaining there is meaning to such things, and yet their importance than the tragedies and histories of Shakespeare.

    I think it was Thomas Jefferson who wisely said, if you would study gov't and humanity read Shakespeare.
    Last edited by Wessexman; 05-05-09 at 04:26 AM.
    "It is written in the eternal constitution that men of intemperate minds cannot be free. Their passions forge their fetters." - Edmund Burke

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    Re: Would You Utilize Torture to Save a Life?

    Quote Originally Posted by CaptainCourtesy View Post
    The fact that what you think is right, may not be right to others proves you wrong.
    You do realize that is an "absolute" statement.

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    Re: Would You Utilize Torture to Save a Life?

    Quote Originally Posted by CaptainCourtesy View Post
    Shades of gray are the reality of the world. Black or white thinking is absolutist, narrow-minded, shows no ability to think in an expansive way, and rarely if ever applies.
    One can assert there is absolute good, and anything not absolute good is some gradation of "not good." That is absolutist, but not narrow-minded. To assume that absolutist positions MUST be narrow-minded is narrow-minded and commits the error that you're condemning.

  7. #227
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    Re: Would You Utilize Torture to Save a Life?

    Quote Originally Posted by Felicity View Post
    You do realize that is an "absolute" statement.


    I was going to point out that the statement "There are no absolutes" is paradox because it is, itself, an absolute.

    The thing is, most of the time there are shades of gray, but sometimes there are absolutes.

    For example, the answer to the question underneath my name is an absolute. "No, farts absolutely do not have chunks."

    True complexity of thought realizes that not everything is an absolute, but not everything has shades of gray either. The trick is accurately determining which issues fit which category.

    Most people, including myself, fail at this trick.

  8. #228
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    Re: Would You Utilize Torture to Save a Life?

    Quote Originally Posted by CaptainCourtesy View Post
    Which shows that "right" is relative, not absolute. Not black or white, a shade of gray. Proves you wrong.
    Have you ever heard of the [ame="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Natural_law"]Natural Law[/ame]? The basic premise that right and wrong become somewhat obvious by experience and by consensus of many people over broad regions. For instance the Natural Law can explain the universal belief that murder is wrong. Some may even say it is obvious. That is why most grown humans have a basic knowledge of right and wrong. We're not speaking of what they do, but what they know. When a man robs a liquor store, he's know it's wrong. When a man says something mean to a friend, he knows it's wrong. If I call you an asshole, you don't feel cheered up, because your natural feelings tell you something is wrong. The Natural Law thus explains why a man has a right to live and to be free, because people know instinctively that murder is wrong and so is captivity or servitude. Even the Founders understand, though they did it, that slavery was wrong.

    Murder is defined as the illegal killing of a human being.
    Last edited by American; 05-05-09 at 07:48 AM.
    "He who does not think himself worth saving from poverty and ignorance by his own efforts, will hardly be thought worth the efforts of anybody else." -- Frederick Douglass, Self-Made Men (1872)

  9. #229
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    Re: Would You Utilize Torture to Save a Life?

    Quote Originally Posted by American View Post
    Have you ever heard of the Natural Law? The basic premise that right and wrong become somewhat obvious by experience and by consensus of many people over broad regions. For instance the Natural Law can explain the universal belief that murder is wrong. Some may even say it is obvious. That is why most grown humans have a basic knowledge of right and wrong. We're not speaking of what they do, but what they know. When a man robs a liquor store, he's know it's wrong. When a man says something mean to a friend, he knows it's wrong. If I call you an asshole, you don't feel cheered up, because your natural feelings tell you something is wrong. The Natural Law thus explains why a man has a right to live and to be free, because people know instinctively that murder is wrong and so is captivity or servitude. Even the Founders understand, though they did it, that slavery was wrong.

    Murder is defined as the illegal killing of a human being.
    The fact that murder is only the illegal killing of human being is proof that there exists a gray area on this matter. Laws are malleable and dependent on culture. If laws were universal, then an argument could be made, but they are different everywhere.

    Right now, killing someone in an organized Duel is "murder", but it wasn't 200 years ago. So is it always wrong to murder someone in a duel, or is it dependent on the laws?

    Seeking out and murdering the man who raped and murdered your child but got off on a technicality is something I find to be morally OK. But it gets classified as murder, because it is illegal, but I don't think that the person who does this is morally wrong. Do you? It's "murder" by the above definition, and that's always wrong, right?.

    Whereas when the same guy doesn't get off on a technicality and the state kills him, it's legal. Therefore people feel it is morally correct for this guy to be killed. It's the exact same thing except in this case, the state has been given power to kill the man that the ordinary citizen and victim do not have, therefore I think it is morally INcorrect. The state should not have more power than the people have.


    Arguing that the morality of killing a human is dependent on legality is just silly. It is a way to justify killings that you agree with so that it doesn't get classified as "murder" so that one can continue to feel that "murder" is always wrong. To me, murder is the willful killing of a human being. It is not always wrong.

    These justifications of "legal" vs, "Illegal" are irrelevant in the actual moral discussion because legal killing can be more "wrong" than an illegal killing.

    For example, the illegal killing of a guilty man is not as morally incorrect as the legal killing of an innocent man. And these aren't just hypothetical. Innocent people have been killed legally, and guilty people have been killed illegally over and over again throughout history.

    How does that reality fit in with the black and white vew that legality is nthe only barometer of morality?

  10. #230
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    Re: Would You Utilize Torture to Save a Life?

    Quote Originally Posted by CaptainCourtesy View Post
    Which shows that "right" is relative, not absolute. Not black or white, a shade of gray. Proves you wrong.
    Hardly. You are conflating "absolute" with "fixed".

    Within any one perspective, right and wrong are most assuredly absolute. Even when we acknowledge that a deed has both good and bad attributes, we still apply the absolutes of "good" and "bad", merely at a more granular scale; we say that merit "A" is "good" and demerit "B" is "bad", but we do not say either is simultaneously "good" and "bad". Good/bad, right/wrong, these value determinations are invariably absolute in their application, regardless of the granularity of the application.

    Disagreement arises because what you deem "bad" others may deem "good" and vice versa. Another person's application of the absolutes is oriented differently from your own. That shift in perspective, however, is not a dilution of the absolutes, merely a rearranging of them.

    Your black and my white do not unite to make gray. Your black remains black, my white remains white--each absolute to our own relative perspectives.

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