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Waterboarding vs Sleep Deprivation

Which is worse

  • waterboarding

    Votes: 7 43.8%

  • sleep deprivation

    Votes: 9 56.3%
  • Total voters
    16
talloulou

talloulou

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So I've been thinking about this and I'm curious what you all think. Most of the hysteria about the recently released memos involves the waterboarding. It's been called monstrous, heinous, etc. But not many folks get hysterical in the same way about the sleep deprivation.

However if you look both things up the sleep deprivation to me sounds much worse.

It causes actual physical damage. Lower cortisol levels, lowered immune system, hallucinations, and even possibly psychosis.

The process lasts much longer.

You know keeping them awake must involve loud noises, taunting, perhaps squirting with hoses, and eventually I'm thinking there must be some physicality involved because no matter how noisy you are being a tired prisoner is eventually just going to collapse into sleep. So at some point the prisoner is probably manhandled awake.

The mental anguish of sleep deprivation seems like it would be more haunting than the waterboarding - to me -if only because the memories of it will be larger, longer, and the process will probably involve far more aggressors when the job is not letting you sleep for days.

So which do you all think is worse waterboarding or sleep deprivation?

And if you think they're equal than how come we seem to talk or care more about the waterboarding???

Just curious.
 
talloulou said:
So I've been thinking about this and I'm curious what you all think. Most of the hysteria about the recently released memos involves the waterboarding. It's been called monstrous, heinous, etc. But not many folks get hysterical in the same way about the sleep deprivation.

However if you look both things up the sleep deprivation to me sounds much worse.

It causes actual physical damage. Lower cortisol levels, lowered immune system, hallucinations, and even possibly psychosis.

The process lasts much longer.

You know keeping them awake must involve loud noises, taunting, perhaps squirting with hoses, and eventually I'm thinking there must be some physicality involved because no matter how noisy you are being a tired prisoner is eventually just going to collapse into sleep. So at some point the prisoner is probably manhandled awake.

The mental anguish of sleep deprivation seems like it would be more haunting than the waterboarding - to me -if only because the memories of it will be larger, longer, and the process will probably involve far more aggressors when the job is not letting you sleep for days.

So which do you all think is worse waterboarding or sleep deprivation?

And if you think they're equal than how come we seem to talk or care more about the waterboarding???

Just curious.
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Physical effects: sleep deprivation is far worse and more lasting.

Mental effects: since they are both types of toture, both will yield lasting mental problems. The severity will depend on the individual.

There is more hysteria about waterboarding because it is receiving more airplay from the media.
 
I almost drowned once, when I was a child. I'm not capable of stepping within three feet of the swimming pool at work now.

I experience sleep deprivation pretty much any time I go off my meds. I'm running on about two and a half days now. From previous experience, I'd say I have another five or six hours before I start hallucinating.

I would rather be sleep deprived any day.
 
I see waterboarding is worse, the feeling you get when you're unable to breath or hardly breathing makes sleep depriviation 100x better ..
 
Is this a "don't try this at home" thread :roll: ?
 
CaptainCourtesy said:
Since both are inefficient and do not guarantee this, then both are equally bad.
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Waterboarding is incredibly efficient. Also, and it's not really necessary to say it, is it? Information collected from any prisoner or any source has to be verified independently before it can be considered reliable.

But water boarding works to extract information, so does sleep deprivation, so does other techniques.

What's important is that the tongue gets loosened, lives are saved, and the terrorist can feel shameful for squealing.
 
Sleep deprivation is tough, but waterboarding is simulated murder. I'd rather be dead-tired than thinking I'm actually dead.
 
Scarecrow Akhbar said:
Waterboarding is incredibly efficient. Also, and it's not really necessary to say it, is it? Information collected from any prisoner or any source has to be verified independently before it can be considered reliable.

But water boarding works to extract information, so does sleep deprivation, so does other techniques.

What's important is that the tongue gets loosened, lives are saved, and the terrorist can feel shameful for squealing.
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Torture is inherently unreliable. The purpose is to get incriminating information. If the prisoner has none, and the interrogator does not know that, torture will continue until the prisoner gives some information...in this case, false information. For torture to work, there needs to be some independent source verifying that the prisoner has information before torture begins. This is often a paradox...to torture you must know the information, but if you know the information, why bother with the torture?

Tongues get loosened but information provided is not always useful. If your purpose is just to humiliate, than you are no better than they are.
 
CaptainCourtesy said:
Since both are inefficient and do not guarantee this, then both are equally bad.
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To be fair to his statement here....

A car that goes 8 miles per gallon and one that goe 12 miles per gallon are both inefficient when compared to one that goes 30 miles per gallon. That said, one of them still is clearly MORE efficient than the other (the 12 over the 8).
 
CaptainCourtesy said:
Torture is inherently unreliable. The purpose is to get incriminating information.
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Incriminating? Who said anything about incriminating?

I don't give a damn if it incriminates anybody. I want actionable intelligence that lets the troops know where to go for the turkey shoot.
 
I think being sleep deprived just sounds better because most of us don't have the capacity to understand what it would be like to have captors keeping you awake for days on end.
 
Edify_Always_In_All_Ways said:
Sleep deprivation is tough, but waterboarding is simulated murder. I'd rather be dead-tired than thinking I'm actually dead.
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Simulated murder? The waterboarding doesn't even cause physical damage while the sleep deprivation does!

I think much of the hysteria is emotional and not logical. If it were logical folks would be as concerned if not MORE concerned about the sleep deprivation. Or even the cold cell. We have killed someone stripping them naked, hosing them down, and leaving them in a cold cell. Supposedly a prisoner died of hypothermia. Yet you don't hear folks calling that barbaric or getting hysterical about that.

Put in perspective waterboarding is less dangerous than both sleep deprivation and cold cell interrogations!

I can understand if folks think NONE of them should be done. But what I have trouble wrapping my head around is folks going nuts over something that causes no actual bodily damage while remaining relatively mum and non- hysterical on things that do cause damage, have caused damage, and have actually killed people. Some of the folks I've talked to about waterboarding are extremely against waterboarding and damn near apathetic when it comes to sleep deprivation. Logically, I'm sorry, but that makes like zero sense.
 
Edify_Always_In_All_Ways said:
Sleep deprivation is tough, but waterboarding is simulated murder. I'd rather be dead-tired than thinking I'm actually dead.
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If you're actually dead, you're not thinking, so how is that even a possibility?
 
talloulou said:
I think being sleep deprived just sounds better because most of us don't have the capacity to understand what it would be like to have captors keeping you awake for days on end.
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Then again, whole bunches of us were in the military, where sleep deprivation is a way of life.

So what's the big deal? They want to take a nap, they squeal. That's all.
 
talloulou said:
I think being sleep deprived just sounds better because most of us don't have the capacity to understand what it would be like to have captors keeping you awake for days on end.
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As one who has been through both, i'd rather endure 5 mins of waterboarding than sleep deprivation.
 
It would depend on how far you took either one. Both may be the answer depending on how done.


Waterboard #1: "Are you a terrorist?"
"No"

Waterboard #75 "Are you a terrorist?"
"No!"

Waterboard #150 "Are you a terrorist?"
"Yes.... just stop.."

Sleepdep hour #1 "Are you a terrorist?"
"No"

Sleepdep hour #75 "Are you a terrorist?"
"Huh?.. Wha? Water drips downward most the time...."

Sleepdep hour #150 "Are you a terrorist?"
"............. I like BOOM!"

What about combined? Wouldn't that be super power fake torture? I wonder how many times the interrogator went to go get himself a glass of water and accidentally left the waterboarding spicket on?
 
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Reverend_Hellh0und said:
As one who has been through both, i'd rather endure 5 mins of waterboarding than sleep deprivation.
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Rev, you just don't get it man. Both are unacceptable methods of torture. Never mind that our military personnel frequently withstands these "agonizing" practices with relative ease. Never mind that lot's of them even volunteer to have it done. That doesn't matter! All that matters is people are made to be uncomfortable; that is beyond the pale! Anyway...

I've never been water-boarded so I have no real basis for comparison. However, I was the "victim" of sleep deprivation and became "extremely distressed" because of it. Obviously, I was tortured. Had I been given the chance though, I would have gone to SERE school where I would have been subjected to water-boarding. I'm sure it sucks, but then again, so do a lot of things. Now, if SERE school entailed having my fingernails pulled out with pliers or getting my testicles attached to a car battery it’s not an idea I would have entertained because that’s real torture.
 
Ethereal said:
I've never been water-boarded so I have no real basis for comparison. However, I was the "victim" of sleep deprivation and became "extremely distressed" because of it. Obviously, I was tortured. Had I been given the chance though, I would have gone to SERE school where I would have been subjected to water-boarding. I'm sure it sucks, but then again, so do a lot of things. Now, if SERE school entailed having my fingernails pulled out with pliers or getting my testicles attached to a car battery it’s not an idea I would have entertained because that’s real torture.
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I'm surprised this is even a debate, frankly. Any parent KNOWS the hell of sleep deprivation--usually instigated by that most vicious and insidious of monsters, the awake child. How can anyone even think that waterboarding compares?
 
talloulou said:
Simulated murder? The waterboarding doesn't even cause physical damage while the sleep deprivation does!
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celticlord said:
If you're actually dead, you're not thinking, so how is that even a possibility?
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Feeling dead, whatever. For the record, I'm not against waterboarding or sleep deprivation, but I think my hallucinations could float me through the latter. Even if you get false information, you may have some way to check it and confirm its falseness, in which case you can pass on more torture. However, at least one of these methods has apparently helped prevent another attack, which is the important thing.
 
Ethereal said:
Rev, you just don't get it man. Both are unacceptable methods of torture. Never mind that our military personnel frequently withstands these "agonizing" practices with relative ease. Never mind that lot's of them even volunteer to have it done. That doesn't matter! All that matters is people are made to be uncomfortable; that is beyond the pale! Anyway...

I've never been water-boarded so I have no real basis for comparison. However, I was the "victim" of sleep deprivation and became "extremely distressed" because of it. Obviously, I was tortured. Had I been given the chance though, I would have gone to SERE school where I would have been subjected to water-boarding. I'm sure it sucks, but then again, so do a lot of things. Now, if SERE school entailed having my fingernails pulled out with pliers or getting my testicles attached to a car battery it’s not an idea I would have entertained because that’s real torture.
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"Real torture" as opposed to what? Less real torture? Non-torture? Harsh interrogation technique?

I think what's perturbing about his whole water boarding debate is that many people, including many military personnel and some journalists, volunteer to undergo water boarding to understand the experience. None like it, of course. Which is the whole point.

But no soldiers or journalists as far as I know would volunteer to have their fingernails pulled out with pliers. Or to have their bones shattered. Or to undergo 'real torture' as most of us clearly understand it.

I have heard that some S&M techniques involve the use of electrodes on sensitive areas of the body. But that's another subject altogether.

;)
 
Edify_Always_In_All_Ways said:
Feeling dead, whatever. For the record, I'm not against waterboarding or sleep deprivation, but I think my hallucinations could float me through the latter. Even if you get false information, you may have some way to check it and confirm its falseness, in which case you can pass on more torture. However, at least one of these methods has apparently helped prevent another attack, which is the important thing.
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So what happens after "information" is wrought from them? Do they sit in a cell forever or get executed?
 
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