View Poll Results: Did we evolve from Apes?

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  • Yes, we evolved from Apes.

    71 53.38%
  • No, we have not evolved in any shape or form, we are the same biological beings we have always been.

    26 19.55%
  • Yes, we did evolve, but i do not think we evolved from Apes.

    36 27.07%
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Thread: Evolution: Did we really evolve from Apes?

  1. #491
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    Re: Evolution: Did we really evolve from Apes?

    Quote Originally Posted by Ikari View Post
    Lies, those are lies and nothing more. I point to Crusades and Inquisition only when people try to relate atheism to Communism. I have countless times said that I don't actually hold religion responsible for the sins of man. And what's this "second post consisting of only insults" BS? You're the one that levied insults, not I. And should you get some of what you dish out, well that's just turnabout. Besides, you should be following the ol' rule "treat others as you wish others to treat you." Since you seem to want to do nothing but hurl personal insults at me, it seems reasonable to me that what you truly want is to have insults hurled back at you. So in a way, I'm doing you a favor.

    you're welcome.




    you are such a raging hypocrite, it's why it's not worth the effort of dealing with you. You bitch bitch bitch about "personal insults" being directed at you and look at this post. You filled it with personal insult. It's all you do. "Oh the evolutionists do blah" and then you turn around and do blah. It's inconceivable that you have blinded yourself to your hypocrisy. That you dwell in anger and hatred against atheist and those who accept evolution so much so that you make arguments that are useless and make no sense. Sorry, that's not an insult; that's the truth. You discount measurement through some flippant philosophy and claim you've done something worthwhile. At that point we're done. Because if we're going to talk about measured result and ideals based on your preconceived notions and bigotry; I'm going with the measured results. That's just the way it is. You are well too angry and well too close minded to have any meaningful debate with. Again, not insult but rather measured reality. The whole of this thread is testament to that.

    All you have is insult and obtuse philosophy. So before you start running your mouth again about insults and such, I suggest you take a good hard look in the mirror. Get yourself right before you come after other people. Let he who is without sin....
    Quote Originally Posted by Originally Posted by justone
    So the question begs - instead of taking time to answer YOUR bogus misrepresentations of my statements why did not you go to MY statements and questions themselves and answer, address THEM? http://www.debatepolitics.com/polls/...post1058014005 (Evolution: Did we really evolve from Apes?)
    http://www.debatepolitics.com/polls/...post1058014007 (Evolution: Did we really evolve from Apes?) You, completely blinded by your hatred, have found time to spew a bunch of unsupported insults. What else is new about fanatical atheists and evolutionists?
    http://www.debatepolitics.com/polls/...post1058021084

    Quote Originally Posted by Originally Posted by justone
    Anyone can go back and read. And you make it in the most primitive way, since you are into the 2nd long post of continuing the debate with 863 words up to this point. Since you claimed that my statements were crap but you are into the 2nd post when you cannot quote and support your claim, but only can keep on piling misrepresentation of my statements, mixed with substituting of my statements with yours, mixed with primitive insults I want to assure you that everyone heard who you are
    http://www.debatepolitics.com/polls/...post1058021084 (Evolution: Did we really evolve from Apes?)

    The correction to the above: now you are into the 3rd post with 1252 words up to this point, yet none addressing MY statements and questions which made you cut and run.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ikari View Post
    I point to Crusades and Inquisition only when people try to relate atheism to Communism.
    This is the only line I read out. You wouldn’t even realize that I and may be not only I don’t even read in as soon I and may be not only I realize that AGAIN you are not addressing what you are supposed to address and but only repeating yourself.

    OK. You lie about Crusades and Inquisition only when you lie about relation between atheism and Communism. The question remains - what is about your lie related to religious fanatics denying Heliocentrism I quoted and addressed and as I quoted and addressed? You up to 1252 words, but not even a peep.
    Last edited by justone; 05-13-09 at 04:58 PM.

  2. #492
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    Re: Evolution: Did we really evolve from Apes?

    Quote Originally Posted by justone View Post
    The question remains - what is about your lie related to religious fanatics denying Heliocentrism I quoted and addressed and as I quoted and addressed? You up to 1252 words, but not even a peep.
    I've well addressed it. It's also not a lie, BTW. Look at history and see what happened. Sorry if you want to deny measured fact, but religious fanaticism did deny certain findings of science so much so that they used their power of church to dominate and suppress. The point, to which I have pointed out on many occasion, is that religion and science are different subjects and need to be kept separate. I don't care what people's personal beliefs are, people are free to believe as they like. But I don't like when people try to inject religion into science. I have said that MULTIPLE times. Instead of acting all holier-than-thou and looking down upon me and what I write because of the position from where I come, maybe you should try actually reading what I write. You admit that you don't read these posts anyway.

    Quote Originally Posted by justone View Post
    This is the only line I read out.
    You read one line, dismissed the rest, and went on with your bigoted rant against me. It's not my fault you don't read, so quit trying to blame me. I have come to the point many many many times, religion and science are different subjects. Science will never seek an answer in the form of gods because gods are immeasurable. Science seeks to understand the dynamics of nature, and answering via acts of gods are useless on that front. All this crap you spew against science and evolution and atheists is rooted in a desire to inject religion into science. Theology and Science are different subjects and should be treated as such.

    The last part of your bigoted and angry post about my position on the inquisition and your continued lies about what I believe proves my point only more. I don't like about the Crusades or the Inquisition, that's measured reality. You seem to take a lot of issue with measured reality. Those things happened and are well documented. When people incorrectly try to blame the acts of Communist regimes on atheists, I claim then they must accept as religiously motivated the acts of the Crusades, Inquisition, War of the Roses, etc. That's it. You can stop lying and bearing false witness whenever you like now. I really thought maybe that was one of your commandments you weren't supposed to break; but it shows how deep your convictions really are. Abandon the tenants of your religion should you need to rage righteous fury against someone else. Classic.
    You know the time is right to take control, we gotta take offense against the status quo

    Quote Originally Posted by A. de Tocqueville
    "I should have loved freedom, I believe, at all times, but in the time in which we live I am ready to worship it."

  3. #493
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    Re: Evolution: Did we really evolve from Apes?

    Quote Originally Posted by Ikari View Post
    I've well addressed it.
    No need to read further
    Quote Originally Posted by Originally Posted by justone
    I posted detailed consideration of your statements as it is appropriate on DP, I quoted and posted my replies under each quote. You cut and run and never attempted to quote me and reply to MY statements and questions as it is appropriate on DP. Quote:
    Originally Posted by Originally Posted by justone
    Anyone can go back and read. And you make it in the most primitive way, since you are into the 2nd long post of continuing the debate with 863 words up to this point. Since you claimed that my statements were crap but you are into the 2nd post when you cannot quote and support your claim, but only can keep on piling misrepresentation of my statements, mixed with substituting of my statements with yours, mixed with primitive insults I want to assure you that everyone heard who you are
    http://www.debatepolitics.com/polls/...post1058021084

    The correction to the above: now you are into the 3rd post with 1252 words up to this point, yet none addressing MY statements and questions the ones which made you cut and run.
    The correction to the above: now you are into the 4rd post with 1657 words up to this point, yet none addressing MY statements and questions the ones which made you cut and run and which were made of 1652 words.
    Quote Originally Posted by Ikari View Post
    I have to write a PhD thesis, a talk and poster for DAMOP, and a paper for PRL...sorry if I can't sit around and entertain you
    You could have done a word for a word and have 5 more.
    Last edited by justone; 05-13-09 at 07:16 PM.

  4. #494
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    Re: Evolution: Did we really evolve from Apes?

    Quote Originally Posted by justone View Post
    No need to read further
    So again you admit that you refuse to read my posts. You have the gall to lay insult, lie, hyperbole, and distortion against my argument and person without even reading what I post. I've answered your question in full, you refuse to hear the answer because I suspect it doesn't fit with your preconceived notions of what I should be saying. Your problem, but I don't have time for your unintelligent babble and continued dismissal of argument through obtuse philosophy. You keep quoting yourself referring back to two posts you made, those posts are why I stopped responding. Because that's the obtuse philosophy you keep bringing up. You are allowing for complete relativism. Numbers are man made, and subject to mistake. The Lamb shift was a mistake in numbers, but we had to rationalize it somehow so we invented random vacuum fluctuations, etc. That's all BS, sorry; but measured reality wins out against your obtuse and conveniently constructed philosophy. You're basically trying to argue from Descartes' demon at which point the argument becomes meaningless. Either what we experience, see, and measure are real or they are mirages composed of whatever it may be that defy your senses, demons, numbers, infinity, whatever you want to make up. If everything is subjective and relative, no real argument can be had. So I either have to think that maybe there's some evil demon distorting my perception of everything, or that everything I measure and see and interact with is real. I go with measurements being real. You want to disprove the measured reality because it goes against some of your claims, so you have to try to introduce relativism. I don't engage in those arguments since they are pointless. I have said as much many times. I have answered your questions fully and in an absolute stance. I refuse to engage in childish, relativism arguments where we're discussing if our perception of reality is real or not. If you want to run off and wax intellectual with your obtuse philosophy, go ahead. But I'm sitting here with a choice on what to believe; you and your unproven opinions and philosophy, or actual measurement. You're not going to win that one.

    If you decide to grow up and have an intellectually honest debate you can. If you wish to continue on your childish tantrums, deflection, and lies; you're free to do so as well. I shall not continue, however, should your decision be the latter.
    Last edited by Ikari; 05-13-09 at 07:53 PM.
    You know the time is right to take control, we gotta take offense against the status quo

    Quote Originally Posted by A. de Tocqueville
    "I should have loved freedom, I believe, at all times, but in the time in which we live I am ready to worship it."

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    Re: Evolution: Did we really evolve from Apes?

    Quote Originally Posted by justone View Post
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by Originally Posted by justone
    I posted detailed consideration of your statements as it is appropriate on DP, I quoted and posted my replies under each quote. You cut and run and never attempted to quote me and reply to MY statements and questions as it is appropriate on DP. Quote:


    Quote Originally Posted by [I
    Originally Posted by Originally Posted by justone [/I]]
    Anyone can go back and read. And you make it in the most primitive way, since you are into the 2nd long post of continuing the debate with 863 words up to this point. Since you claimed that my statements were crap but you are into the 2nd post when you cannot quote and support your claim, but only can keep on piling misrepresentation of my statements, mixed with substituting of my statements with yours, mixed with primitive insults I want to assure you that everyone heard who you are
    http://www.debatepolitics.com/polls/...post1058021084 (Evolution: Did we really evolve from Apes?)

    The correction to the above: now you are into the 3rd post with 1252 words up to this point, yet none addressing MY statements and questions the ones which made you cut and run
    The correction to the above: now you are into the 4rd post with 1657 words up to this point, yet none addressing MY statements and questions the ones which made you cut and run and which were made of 1652 words. You could have done a word for a word and have 5 more.
    The correction to the above: now you are into the 5th post with 2068 words up to this point, yet none addressing MY statements and questions the ones which made you cut and run and which were made of 1652 words.

  6. #496
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    Re: Evolution: Did we really evolve from Apes?

    I addressed your statements, even in my last post. You continually dodge what I say because you don't want to engage in intellectually honest, adult debate.

    We're now done. I have no time for the intellectually weak and constitutionally challenged.
    You know the time is right to take control, we gotta take offense against the status quo

    Quote Originally Posted by A. de Tocqueville
    "I should have loved freedom, I believe, at all times, but in the time in which we live I am ready to worship it."

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    Re: Evolution: Did we really evolve from Apes?

    Quote Originally Posted by Ikari View Post
    I addressed your statements, even in my last post. You continually dodge what I say because you don't want to engage in intellectually honest, adult debate.

    We're now done. I have no time for the intellectually weak and constitutionally challenged.
    I posted detailed consideration of your statements as it is appropriate on DP, I quoted and posted my replies under each quote. You cut and run and never attempted to quote me and reply to MY statements and questions as it is appropriate on DP

    http://www.debatepolitics.com/polls/...post1058014005

    http://www.debatepolitics.com/polls/...post1058014007

    now you are into the 6th post with 2168 words up to this point, yet none addressing MY statements and questions the ones which made you cut and run and which were made of 1652 words.

  8. #498
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    Re: Evolution: Did we really evolve from Apes?

    Quote Originally Posted by justone View Post
    I posted detailed consideration of your statements as it is appropriate on DP, I quoted and posted my replies under each quote. You cut and run and never attempted to quote me and reply to MY statements and questions as it is appropriate on DP

    http://www.debatepolitics.com/polls/...post1058014005

    http://www.debatepolitics.com/polls/...post1058014007

    now you are into the 6th post with 2168 words up to this point, yet none addressing MY statements and questions the ones which made you cut and run and which were made of 1652 words.
    I specifically responded to the WHOLE of that when I said:

    "You keep quoting yourself referring back to two posts you made, those posts are why I stopped responding. Because that's the obtuse philosophy you keep bringing up. You are allowing for complete relativism. Numbers are man made, and subject to mistake. The Lamb shift was a mistake in numbers, but we had to rationalize it somehow so we invented random vacuum fluctuations, etc. That's all BS, sorry; but measured reality wins out against your obtuse and conveniently constructed philosophy. You're basically trying to argue from Descartes' demon at which point the argument becomes meaningless. Either what we experience, see, and measure are real or they are mirages composed of whatever it may be that defy your senses, demons, numbers, infinity, whatever you want to make up. If everything is subjective and relative, no real argument can be had. So I either have to think that maybe there's some evil demon distorting my perception of everything, or that everything I measure and see and interact with is real. I go with measurements being real. You want to disprove the measured reality because it goes against some of your claims, so you have to try to introduce relativism. I don't engage in those arguments since they are pointless. I have said as much many times. I have answered your questions fully and in an absolute stance. I refuse to engage in childish, relativism arguments where we're discussing if our perception of reality is real or not. If you want to run off and wax intellectual with your obtuse philosophy, go ahead. But I'm sitting here with a choice on what to believe; you and your unproven opinions and philosophy, or actual measurement. You're not going to win that one."

    Already answered. You can quit referring back to those pointless and meaningless quotes of yours when I have already specifically addressed your "arguments" in their full and utterly useless context.
    You know the time is right to take control, we gotta take offense against the status quo

    Quote Originally Posted by A. de Tocqueville
    "I should have loved freedom, I believe, at all times, but in the time in which we live I am ready to worship it."

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    Re: Evolution: Did we really evolve from Apes?

    Since you came back you have been ''responding'' only to YOUR misrepresentations of my statements, not to what I FORMULATED; you have been ''responding'' ONLY with meaningless insults and insinuations. The appropriate way would be – to quote me what I exactly said and to reply to what I exactly said.

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    Re: Evolution: Did we really evolve from Apes?

    Quote Originally Posted by justone View Post
    What about gravity necessitates evolution?
    I didn't make the argument that gravity proves evolution, you however made the argument that gravity proves god (God has real world effects which can directly be measured, gravity for an example). Thus I asked what about gravity necessitates a god, you couldn't answer. The answer is, there is nothing inherent to gravity which necessitates a god. At no point did I say gravity necessitates evolution, you however claimed that gravity necessitates god.

    Quote Originally Posted by justone View Post
    What fossils have to do when changes have been observed all the time no fossils needed?
    Because evolution is a large timescale dynamic captured by the fossil record. Do you wish to dispute the fossil record?

    Quote Originally Posted by justone View Post
    Hmm... Blip. Hmm...Blip. You think so because God tells you so? Or you have any arguments to put up besides your decision to start imitating Tussah’s sophisticated vocabulary instead of making things clear and simple?
    Not at all, you used Descartes demon and I think it's a pointless defense.

    Quote Originally Posted by justone View Post
    Try again:

    Infinity includes all centimeters and cubic centimeters and all other possible numbers, including … ok I will skip complication… everything. All your measurements are just particular cases of infinity.

    True or false?
    Descartes demon

    Quote Originally Posted by justone View Post
    Says who?
    Part of your argument, less you wish to claim ignorance of the English language.


    Quote Originally Posted by justone View Post
    I understand you are just trying to use Tashah’s sophisticated vocabulary in order to bring in vagueness and mystics instead of making things simple and clear, - but you are not referring to Plank’s quantum. Am I correct?
    I was referring to infinity. The value used for evaluation particularly for boundary conditions and such. It's well defined.

    Quote Originally Posted by justone View Post
    It is exactly up side down. You are confusing a cause with an effect. Lamb shift was observed. In order to ‘’explain ‘’ and insert the explanation in the model the mathematical abstract of vacuum fluctuations was suggested, as well as the abstract possibility of breaking energy conservation for a moment was. You can use Lamb shift for your mambo jumbo machine. It was observed in an experiment and you know how to cause it using a jumbo mambo machine as a part of your mambo jumbo machine. Think. IBM. Invent. HP.
    No. In fact, random vacuum fluctuations explain a great many of measured phenominon including Lamb shifts, zero point energy, etc. They are predicted through quantum mechanics and general relativity. To measure the effects of random vacuum fluctuations took precision experiments, the equipment for which wasn't around in full glory till well after the theory saying these things were possible came out. In fact, at first it was "allowable" but no one said they happened. They are allowed through brief periods of breaking energy conservation, or rather better though of as deriving their energy from the curvature of space. It was said this was allowed, it was said well if this is allowed it will have these affects. When those affects were measured, there was then proof of the dynamic.

    Again, you're asking me to choose between believing in you, a man with a obvious agenda and clear bias, or scientists...impartial and experts in fields well unknown by you. Sorry, but you're going to lose that one every time.

    Quote Originally Posted by justone View Post
    The energy exchange between the electron and vacuum has not been caught in any experiment, so it is of no use for you. Accepting that it occurs, THE MORE inserting that as true in another theory makes you a shore minded atheist, a blind believer, a fantast. The energy exchange between the electron and vacuum does not physically exist until you cause/observe it in experiments like your observed Lamb shift.
    Zero point energies, Lamb shift have been well measured. Other effects are continually being demonstrated in new experiments including electron-lattice interactions, electron mass renormalization, and high energy experiments in colliders. Continually refined, continually measured, continually scrutinized. Nothing to date has come up which would indicate that random vacuum fluctuations are as you say they are. Rather, all the data seems to say that the scientists have a good understanding of the phenomenon and all affects that it would cause are being measured and confirmed. So again...looks like the scientists win.

    Quote Originally Posted by justone View Post
    ‘’energy conservation can most certainly be violated for brief periods of time’’ is exactly where scientists go completely wrong.
    Personal opinion backed by nothing but bias and bigotry. Prove it.

    Quote Originally Posted by justone View Post
    Physical laws, observations do not matter for them any more, common sense is abolished, a religion instead is erected. Would you be able to understand what are you saying? This brief period of time would allow us sooner or later to get into it and steal energy from vacuum. Understand? As soon as we have a little gap we always will be working and be successful in squeezing something into it. The common experience tells us if it can happen it will happen and it happens. If there was such a gap in time it would be as huge as brief because both huge and brief are very relative and subjective terms. And if we can squeeze, the Mother Nature would do it with no problem. And the energy would happen to be stolen, and we would observe that and would never come up with the law of conservation in the 1st place. The total inability to draw the line between virtual reality of mathematics and the physical world we live in multiplied by a necessity to represent the virtual world as real in movies and books puts today science in the dark ages.
    Nothing but garbage. This is personal opinion and hatred thrown at science and progress. You don't understand fully the dynamics you're trying to rally against and can not come up with a coherent and scientific argument against it. Fail.

    Quote Originally Posted by justone View Post
    It is related to the above. It uses better English and better construction that I could make. Observations it refers to render it to be true.
    “Since the mathematicians have invaded the theory of relativity, I do not understand it myself anymore.” – Einstein.
    This proves what? Math for the sake of math can be confusing. But we're not talking of that, we're talking of measurement. Measurement is beyond pretty math and philosophy, measurement is real.

    Quote Originally Posted by justone View Post
    If theory is valid it is exactly what you use to make experiments. Otherwise you would be an alchemist or an evolutionist. You are an alchemist and not an experimentalist, because you have no rules to follow but make up your own very vague and ambiguous sentences instead of the 4 rules experimentalists has been using for centuries, starting from Newton and finishing by Einstein.
    Science hasn't ended with Einstein, it has exploded since then. And all done in proper scientific form. Again, this is what it comes down to. You are a guy with an agenda, you have clear bigotry and bias towards science and progress. You rant and rave about how science is wrong. Science, on the other hand, has measurements (something you have not once presented...I have) and has results, measured. That's reality. You want me to believe your side even though you have offered nothing but semantics, poor philosophy, and unsubstantiated rantings. Einstein is not the end all to science, we have expanded knowledge far beyond what Einstein contributed. You seem sort of the plum pudding sort of fellow; I'm more of the quantum mechanically derived and measured sort of fellow. I'll take what is proven, not the rantings of a man with clear agenda against science.

    Quote Originally Posted by justone View Post
    It is as emotional as it is vague. You are not an experimentalist. Experimentalists have been following well defined rules for ages. You are brushing these rules away with no reason to do so, but you make trees tell the truth, atoms tell the truth, gods tell the truth. If atoms tell the truth you have to make me hear it and it has to be the same truth as you hear and everyone else hears. If atoms say that humans and apes have the same ancestor everyone should be able to hear that so nobody would argue aliens or gods.
    I am a published physicist, you are not. You're a guy on the internet with a religious agenda to push and you're pissed off because I say keep religion and science separate. That's all this comes down to. You're pissed because you can't demonstrate your points at all, but you want me to accept them as scientific and I refuse. My atoms tell me quantum mechanics works. BECs test the fundamental laws of quantum mechanics to see if they're true or not. My work in AMO is dominated by quantum effects and well explained by them. The dynamics and the theory match up. Nature always has the truth; we just have to be able to listen to what it has to say. Not rant and rave in closed minded bigotry because someone dared say something you don't like. That gets us nowhere, and humanity doesn't sit still. Stagnation is death.

    Quote Originally Posted by justone View Post
    You either see the deviation of an instrument or not. Things either occur or they don’t. If there is no occurrence why would you be making a theory “proving” the occurrence as ‘’a fact’’?
    Measured reality is measured reality and nothing you can say detracts from that. You have no measurement to back up your claims, I have well documented measurement to back up mine. From the Lamb Shift to Evolution, it's measured. We know it happened. We know things have changed. You're arguing stagnation, I'm arguing change. The data supports one of us...care to take a guess which one?

    Quote Originally Posted by justone View Post
    to be continued
    No it's not. I've had enough of your flippant philosophy and mindless rants against science and progress. You've backed up nothing you had to say, you refuse to acknowledge measurement, it's completely pointless.
    You know the time is right to take control, we gotta take offense against the status quo

    Quote Originally Posted by A. de Tocqueville
    "I should have loved freedom, I believe, at all times, but in the time in which we live I am ready to worship it."

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