View Poll Results: Did we evolve from Apes?

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  • Yes, we evolved from Apes.

    71 53.38%
  • No, we have not evolved in any shape or form, we are the same biological beings we have always been.

    26 19.55%
  • Yes, we did evolve, but i do not think we evolved from Apes.

    36 27.07%
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Thread: Evolution: Did we really evolve from Apes?

  1. #311
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    Re: Evolution: Did we really evolve from Apes?

    Quote Originally Posted by Ikari View Post
    Evolution as a theory of science
    If evolution is a theory of science, then why it is using exactly the same methodology proving evolution as I do proving existence God, - logical deduction from empirical evidence. Why then my personal belief does not belong to science?

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    Re: Evolution: Did we really evolve from Apes?

    You can't see gravity but you know it exists because you see its direct effects. You can drop a ball and know that gravity is pulling it. You can't see atoms with your naked eye but scientific equipment can, and interactions between atoms can be analyzed.

    You can't test for God's existence. People who believe in God say it is self-evident for them, and that's great... but that's not proof. There is no control mechanism to separate an action caused by God from any rational, explicable action.

    "Creation science" is an oxymoron. Science and the age of rationality arose within the past 400-500 years. Religious scripture predates that. Scripture therefore simply CANNOT contain science or any kind of scientific method. It is purely faith based.
    Last edited by Orion; 05-01-09 at 01:21 PM.

  3. #313
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    Re: Evolution: Did we really evolve from Apes?

    Quote Originally Posted by justone View Post
    If evolution is a theory of science, then why it is using exactly the same methodology proving evolution as I do proving existence God, - logical deduction from empirical evidence. Why then my personal belief does not belong to science?
    Pardon me I might have missed it but what is your empirical evidence proving the existence of God?

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    Re: Evolution: Did we really evolve from Apes?

    Quote Originally Posted by justone View Post
    If evolution is a theory of science, then why it is using exactly the same methodology proving evolution as I do proving existence God, - logical deduction from empirical evidence. Why then my personal belief does not belong to science?
    There are ultimate tests for evolution seen directly through fossil and archeological recrods. Just like gravity, which you can not see, has tests to prove its existence. Measurable quantities like the Cosmic Microwave Background point to the big bang. Random vacuum fluctuations in which matter/anti-matter pairs can be brought into existence out of the vacuum field can be measured with precision measurements of the Lamb shift. All these things which are not directly visible with our eyes have ways in which they can be measured. Gods by their definition are immeasurable. There is no, nor can there ever be, concrete proof of god in this world. Thus theology and science are two very different subjects with different criteria.
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    Re: Evolution: Did we really evolve from Apes?

    We should all stop wasting our time with this guy. He's just a willfully ignorant guy who'd rather keep his head up his ass than accept some uncomfortable truths. Nobody's going to get anywhere.

    He'll probably respond to this post saying all "evolutionists" know how to do is use ad homs and strawmen and claim again there's no reason to believe in evolution... And I'm going to ignore him, because that's what intelligent people do to deal with these sorts of folks.


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  6. #316
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    Re: Evolution: Did we really evolve from Apes?

    Quote Originally Posted by justone View Post
    You look at empirical evidence. You say that the empirical evidence makes you to conclude logically that evolution occurred, occurs and will occur. Fine. I ask, - do you have one justone record of the occurrence of evolution? You say, - no.
    No, that is not what I said at all. I said that humans have never observed SPECIATION since the theory of evolution was developed in the mid-1800s. Nor would one expect them to, since speciation usually takes place over the course of millennia (or longer).

    There are PLENTY of examples of speciation in the fossil record. And there are PLENTY of examples of scientists observing evolution, just not speciation.

    Furthermore, I don't understand how you can logically accept the existence of small-scale evolution over relatively short time frames, while denying that a lot of small changes over a long time will add up to some major changes. Perhaps you can explain your reasoning for this logical disconnect, so that I can show you where you are confused.

    Quote Originally Posted by justone
    I look at empirical evidence. The empirical evidence makes me logically conclude that G-d exist, etc. I have records of his coming and resurrection.

    How can your conclusions possibly be more true than mine?
    I have no idea what you're talking about here. This thread is about the theory of evolution, and now you're talking about God and resurrection?
    Last edited by Kandahar; 05-01-09 at 05:23 PM.
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  7. #317
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    Re: Evolution: Did we really evolve from Apes?

    Quote Originally Posted by winston53660 View Post
    Pardon me I might have missed it but what is your empirical evidence proving the existence of God?
    Pardon me, I might have missed but I am positively sure that you already asked exactly the same Q from me and I gave you an example. You did not make any objections.

    Now you are coming back and making exactly the same argument from ignorance. I have problems with such an attitude of yours.

    In order to learn evolution I read Origins of Life, I went to evolutionist sites only - never to Creationists or Id to look for objections, I read articles in peer reviewed magazines published by evolutionists. Why don't you do the same in order to get familiar with my religion including the fact that the method of logical deduction from empirical evidence was established for the proof of God by one of the greatest empiricists of the history, the father of the method?

    Pardon me, before making the argument from ignorance, what do you think I or the giver of the fundamental laws of genetics, a highly trained mathematician and physicist Gregor Mendel would be abandoning logic and empirical evidence in our personal beliefs?

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    Re: Evolution: Did we really evolve from Apes?

    Quote Originally Posted by justone View Post
    Pardon me, I might have missed but I am positively sure that you already asked exactly the same Q from me and I gave you an example. You did not make any objections.

    Now you are coming back and making exactly the same argument from ignorance. I have problems with such an attitude of yours.

    In order to learn evolution I read Origins of Life, I went to evolutionist sites only - never to Creationists or Id to look for objections, I read articles in peer reviewed magazines published by evolutionists. Why don't you do the same in order to get familiar with my religion including the fact that the method of logical deduction from empirical evidence was established for the proof of God by one of the greatest empiricists of the history, the father of the method?

    Pardon me, before making the argument from ignorance, what do you think I or the giver of the fundamental laws of genetics, a highly trained mathematician and physicist Gregor Mendel would be abandoning logic and empirical evidence in our personal beliefs?
    Why the rampage? If you have empirical, quantifible, testable evidence of god it should not be that hard for you to present it.

  9. #319
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    Re: Evolution: Did we really evolve from Apes?

    Quote Originally Posted by Ikari View Post
    There are ultimate tests for evolution seen directly through fossil and archeological recrods.
    There are ultimate tests for God seen directly through fossil and all the things around us.. Just like gravity, which you can not see, has tests to prove its existence..
    Quote Originally Posted by Ikari View Post
    Measurable quantities like the Cosmic Microwave Background point to the big bang Random vacuum fluctuations in which matter/anti-matter pairs can be brought into existence out of the vacuum field can be measured with precision measurements of the Lamb shift.
    So show me the measurable quantities of evolution - like the Cosmic Microwave Background. And since you are there Show me Random vacuum fluctuations brought into existence, observed and measured. [ame=http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vacuum_energy]Vacuum energy - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia[/ame] The vacuum energy is deduced from the concept of virtual particles, [ame=http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Virtual]Virtual - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia[/ame] The term virtual has been defined...as "that which is not real" but may display the salient qualities of the real.Since you are at this try to convince me that virtuak reality you live in is the same as reality humans live in
    Quote Originally Posted by Ikari View Post
    All these things which are not directly visible with our eyes have ways in which they can be measured. Gods by their definition are immeasurable.
    immeasurable does not mean that cannot be proven to exist. Moreover its existance is a kind of self evident, as you are speaking here.
    Quote Originally Posted by Ikari View Post
    There is no, nor can there ever be, concrete proof of god in this world. Thus theology and science are two very different subjects with different criteria.
    What is a concrete proof? Is there a concrete proof of Big bang?
    Last edited by justone; 05-01-09 at 06:04 PM.

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    Re: Evolution: Did we really evolve from Apes?

    Quote Originally Posted by winston53660 View Post
    Why the rampage? If you have empirical, quantifible, testable evidence of god it should not be that hard for you to present it.
    It is not hard at all, though it may take a few minutes. It is hard even to stay calm. You asked once. I represented. You said something like ''I don't care'' and went away. Did it happen, - yes or no? Why I should spend minutes of life for some guy with no sense of decency?

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