View Poll Results: Can you justify Secession?

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  • Yes -- there are issues that can justify secession

    27 84.38%
  • No -- secession is always wrong

    5 15.63%
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Thread: Could you justify secession?

  1. #41
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    Re: Could you justify secession?

    I'm afraid you're confusing contract-law with international law.
    You are confusing me with someone that is an expert in law.
    My defense is a far more crude in form as I merely argue that
    1) individuals have rights, not governments
    2) we can’t contractually bind future generations
    3) Self determination is the cornerstone of our foundation.

  2. #42
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    Re: Could you justify secession?

    Quote Originally Posted by ARealConservative View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Joe1991 View Post
    I say we let Alaska secede, then when all the rw nuts move up there,
    we bomb them and steal their oil.
    what is rw?
    Right-wing; however I can't think of anything more of a "right-wing nut" sentiment, than to propose bombing nations to steal their oil-- like we are right now, with OPEC nations.
    While the US obviously isn't doing this directly, we're doing it indirectly by intervening in their politics, supporting dictators who promise friendly terms for oil-purchases in order to maintain the supply of oil, and hence keep the price low. Such dictators included the Shah of Iran, the King of Saudi Arabia, and Saddam Hussein; this resulted in the taking of American hostages and other acts of global terrorism against the US by Khomeni, Bin Laden, Hussein, Al Queda and others in retaliation for such intervention.
    If the US was truly neutral, it would simply take a "hands off" policy to domestic policy of other nations, and allow world prices and petrol to regulate themselves. However the US oil-lobby, as well as the US demand for cheap gasoline, has an inordinate inlfluence over US foreign policy in OPEC-regions, which has deleterious effects on international relations with the people of these nations, both politically and miltarily.
    Last edited by SovereignState; 05-13-09 at 02:30 PM.

  3. #43
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    Re: Could you justify secession?

    Quote Originally Posted by ARealConservative View Post
    You are confusing me with someone that is an expert in law.
    My defense is a far more crude in form as I merely argue that

    1) individuals have rights, not governments
    However national sovereignty transcends individual liberty, otherwise nations and national boundaries cannot exist. Governments simply represent the will of the nation's ruling sovereign-- which in the United States was originally the majority of the people of each state respectively; however now, the sovereign is technically the officials of the federal government.

    The "American People," which these officials claim to be the ruling sovereign(s), in reality have no legal power other than simply choosing these officials for their respective state(s); but the actual People have no sovereign authority whatosever (i.e. they cannot vote to overrule the federal government). Therefore it's a misnomer to state that "The American People" somehow "own" the country-- they have no such power. Even voting itself is a privilege, not a right.
    Originally, the popular majority of any state could vote to overrule the federal government; that is how the Constitution was to be upheld against the federal government against breaches. However since the Republican Party usurped the sovereignty of each state in 1861, ordering deadly force against anyone who resisted it, then the federal government has been the sole and final judge of its own powers, construing and interpreting the Constitution as it pleases.

    2) we can’t contractually bind future generations
    Future generations are subject to the same laws and policies as any other newcomers; at most they are free to emigrate, or work to change the laws. There is no national right of heredity other than possible citizenship-- which is a soveriegn privilege, since again there is no such thing as a sovereign individual right.
    However liberation of the national sovereignty of the individual states, would likewise restore sovereignty to the popular majority of each state, away from the federal officials who forcibly and illegally usurped it in 1861-5.

    3) Self determination is the cornerstone of our foundation.
    And thus there were originally 13-- and now 50-- sovereign states, each free to determine their own laws and polices according to the will of their respective people, rather than any reigning elite sovereigns.

    However the Republican party changed that-- by killing over 300,000 people who resisted it, and censorship including closing down over 300 presses, and imprisonment and torture of over 20,000 journalists and others who protested or otherwise failed to support this.

    Strangely, this receives nothing but praise and support under current perverse dogma by those who claim to support "freedom," but who scoff at proper channels for influencing a nation's unpopular domestic policy, instead instead claiming the right to wage Total War against any nation by any means necessary-- and thus revealing their philosophy of ruthless utter pragmatism, principally identical to other ruthless regimes of Fascism, Communism and Jihad where by the ends are said to justify any means necessary.
    Last edited by SovereignState; 05-13-09 at 02:42 PM.

  4. #44
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    Re: Could you justify secession?

    Quote Originally Posted by SovereignState View Post
    However the Republican party changed that-- by killing over 300,000 people who resisted it, and censorship including closing down over 300 presses, and imprisonment and torture of over 20,000 journalists and others who protested or otherwise failed to support this.
    What you really meant to say was that the South caused the deaths and injury of 300,000 Americans in their failed attempt at illegal secession and the GOP successfully preserved the nation in the face of Southern treason and rebellion.

    You should read the Constitution sometime. It expects the president to quell rebellion and habeas corpus may be suspended in times of emergency and rebellion.

    "Torture"?

    Gimme a break, your modern era brainwashing is overflowing, okay?

  5. #45
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    Re: Could you justify secession?

    Quote Originally Posted by SovereignState View Post
    Future generations are subject to the same laws and policies as any other newcomers; at most they are free to emigrate, or work to change the laws.
    That is my point. If someone argues that succession is against the law, you are taking away future generations ability to change that law. Government simply can't bind future generations in such a manner. All laws can change.

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    Re: Could you justify secession?

    Quote Originally Posted by Scarecrow Akhbar View Post
    What you really meant to say was that the South caused the deaths and injury of 300,000 Americans in their failed attempt at illegal secession and the GOP successfully preserved the nation in the face of Southern treason and rebellion.
    You should read the Constitution sometime. It expects the president to quell rebellion and habeas corpus may be suspended in times of emergency and rebellion.

    "Torture"?

    Gimme a break, your modern era brainwashing is overflowing, okay?
    Thanks again for your reply.

    1. The Confederate death-rate was c. 300,000, while other casualties were much higher.
    2. secession cannot be illegal, because the states were sovereign nations. Each of the original 13 states had already exercised its sovereign power, by unilaterally seceding from the Confederation of 1781, in order to originally ratify the Constitution in 1787-1789.
    3. The Union is not, and never was, a sovereign nation.
    4. The Constitution authorizes Congress, not the President, to call forth only the militia to repel invasions and suppress insurrections-- not the military. However the secessions were neither invasion nor insurrection-- nor revolution or rebellion; they were simply changed in foreign policy by sovereign nations, just as if a European nation wished to dissolve a treaty with the American states.
    5. The Constitution permits only Congress to suspend habeas corpus-- not the president.
    6. The matter of habeas corpus pertains only within the nation in question, not a foreign sovereign.
    7. The 1866 Supreme Court ruled the Republican suspensions of habeas corpus unconstitutional-- along with any suspensions when civil courts were functional-- which they always were in the regions in question.
    8. The Paris Peace Treaty of 1783 globally recognized the independent sovereignty of each individual state.
    9. The states never directly or indirectly surrendered their respective national sovereignty, but simply delegated certain powers to the federal government; each implicitly retained its independent sovereignty, by its respective sovereign(s) failing to expressly relinquish it.
    10. The Lincoln Administration indeed administered torture to dissenters imprisoned without trial, in order to force them to recant their dissent-- or voice the required endorsement of the Republican party. These included a water-toture involving placing a hose down the dissenter's throat and turning on the water until they either confessed, or their lungs and/or intestines exploded. Historical fact.
    11. The Republicans abridged freedom of the press and free speech, in order to effect their illegal invasion and conquests of sovereign nations via totalitarian suppression of the truth and other forms of censoring the public from being informed of the truth regarding the national sovereignty of the individual states.
    12. Lincoln premeditatedly abstained from his Constitutional duty to call Congress into emergency-session following South Carolina's secession on Dec. 20, 1860, so as to time his assumption of office to coincide with the Congressional recess on March 4, 1861 so that he could claim congressional absence to justify his usurpation of their power to suspend habeas corpus, declaring rebellion and calling forth of the militia, as well as his ignoring posse comitatus to call forth the military against the states.
    This indicates that Lincoln wanted a war as a "final solution" to the "Southern Problem," just like Hitler wanted against the "Jewish Problem--" i.e. both sought to exterminate the respective faction in question.
    Last edited by SovereignState; 05-13-09 at 08:59 PM.

  7. #47
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    Re: Could you justify secession?

    I see Godwin's Law has been enacted.
    "Never fear. Him is here" - Captain Chaos (Dom DeLuise), Cannonball Run

    Mace Windu: Then our worst fears have been realized. We must move quickly if the Jedi Order is to survive.

    ====||:-D

    Quote Originally Posted by Wiseone View Post
    This is what I hate about politics the most, it turns people in snobbish egotistical self righteous dicks who allow their political beliefs, partisan attitudes, and 'us vs. them' mentality, to force them to deny reality.

    Quote Originally Posted by Navy Pride View Post
    You can't paint everone with the same brush.......It does not work tht way.


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    See with you around Captain we don't even have to make arguments, as you already know everything .
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    Had you been born elsewhere or at a different time you may very well have chosen a different belief system.
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  8. #48
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    Re: Could you justify secession?

    Yes succession is completely constitutional, the states decided to join the union they are free to leave at anytime. (or at least should be...)

    I am looking forward to the future, the federal government is FAR to overreaching and the USSC is a worthless P.O.S. that stopped holding up the constitution years ago. Just about every decision they make if it is a federal law vs. the constitution they will side with federal law and come up with some extremely liberal interpretation of an irrelevant amendment of why their decision does side with the constitution. And no, it is not just the liberal judges, they are all guilty of this.
    Last edited by Thoreau; 05-14-09 at 10:06 AM.

  9. #49
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    Re: Could you justify secession?

    Quote Originally Posted by CaptainCourtesy View Post
    I see Godwin's Law has been enacted.
    That only applies to gratitous comparisons.

    How was my remark gratuitous? In 1933-1945, the German government under Adolph Hitler and the Nazi Party, claimed that the law ganted them sovereign national authority over various European states-- and ordered the deaths of those who resisted him, operating through military force and totalitarian censorship; the deaths-totals numbered in the millions.
    Similarly, in 1861-1865, the United States government under Abraham Lincoln of the Republican Party, likewise claimed that the law granted them national authority over various states of North America—and accordingly, they likewise ordered the deaths of those who resisted him, operating through military force and totalitarian censorship. The death-totals numbered in the hundreds of thousands.
    Last edited by SovereignState; 05-14-09 at 01:23 PM.

  10. #50
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    Re: Could you justify secession?

    Quote Originally Posted by SovereignState View Post
    That only applies to gratitous comparisons.

    How was my remark gratuitous? In 1933-1945, the German government under Adolph Hitler and the Nazi Party, claimed that the law ganted them sovereign national authority over various European states-- and ordered the deaths of those who resisted him, operating through military force and totalitarian censorship; the deaths-totals numbered in the millions.
    Similarly, in 1861-1865, the United States government under Abraham Lincoln of the Republican Party, likewise claimed that the law granted them national authority over various states of North America—and accordingly, they likewise ordered the deaths of those who resisted him, operating through military force and totalitarian censorship. The death-totals numbered in the hundreds of thousands.
    I agree. The issue is that some people don't like to see obvious dots connected in their beliefs of a strong central state with that of Nazi Germany.

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