View Poll Results: Can you justify Secession?

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  • Yes -- there are issues that can justify secession

    27 84.38%
  • No -- secession is always wrong

    5 15.63%
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Thread: Could you justify secession?

  1. #11
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    Re: Could you justify secession?

    Of course separation could be "justified." Not sure how anyone could argue there is no circumstance under which it could be.

    But the mechanism for doing so is pretty important to whether said justification is actually worth the cost of doing so.

    Some sections of cities are able to split off into their own municipalities legally -- but the reasons for doing so might not be so compelling if they had to fight their way out.
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    Re: Could you justify secession?

    Quote Originally Posted by Harshaw View Post
    But the mechanism for doing so is pretty important to whether said justification is actually worth the cost of doing so.
    That's a tawdry sort of illogic....if the "justification" is not worth the cost, then how would it be justified?

    Hence my polite request that the legal aspects of secession be set aside for this thread. My curiosity is focused on how people might articulate a valid justification for secession--to seek some definition, if you will of what might constitute a sufficiently long "train of abuses and usurpations" (borrowing from the Declaration) as to warrant secession.
    Last edited by celticlord; 04-18-09 at 12:16 PM.

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    Re: Could you justify secession?

    Of course there are some circumstances that could justify it.

    A law requiring all citizens of a particular state to be put to death is one example.

    Do I think we will ever see circumstances that would justify it? Probably not.
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  4. #14
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    Re: Could you justify secession?

    Quote Originally Posted by celticlord View Post
    That's a tawdry sort of illogic....if the "justification" is not worth the cost, then how would it be justified?

    Hence my polite request that the legal aspects of secession be set aside for this thread. My curiosity is focused on how people might articulate a valid justification for secession--to seek some definition, if you will of what might constitute a sufficiently long "train of abuses and usurpations" (borrowing from the Declaration) as to warrant secession.
    OK, then this is a pretty pointless poll. I highly doubt anyone would seriously argue that secession is never, ever, under no circumstance, justified. If all you want is a yes or a no, it's a gigantic waste of time.
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    Re: Could you justify secession?

    Remember the Roman Empire fell due to too much diversity? Well that may very well happen here in the states. If a whole state (or majority of one state) totally opposes how our federal government is running our country or it's methods of forcing states to pass laws that they don't want passed then we have a problem.
    I don't believe our federal government should be using blackmail techniques in order to get any state to pass certain laws or creating certain programs within it's borders that the citizens in that state don't want. The states are suppose to govern themselves for the most part. The powers of the federal government as a whole are limited by the Constitution (or suppose to be).

    The Tenth Amendment restates that the powers not delegated to the United States by the Constitution, nor prohibited by it to the States, are reserved to the States respectively, or to the people.

    I realize the reasons for not wanting a state to secede. You want to keep the nation together. But isnít it somewhat against our national character, our focus on freedom and all that, to not allow a state to jump ship if they want to?

    Regarding secession of a state, there is a theory about how Texas could ďsecedeĒ from the United States. In the agreement with the U.S. when it became a state Texas has the right, through a vote, to divide into five separate states. Itís theorized that if this was to happen it would be challenged in the courts by the U. S., making it to the Supreme Court. Itís then theorized that they would not allow Texas to become five states, because it would give them so many seats in the Senate (ten versus two). Therefore the Supreme Court would have to deny this, which would then nullify and void the agreement that brought Texas into the union. This would allow Texas to be a separate nation.


    This from the Montana Constitution which overrides the US Constitution.
    Section 2. Self-government. The people have the exclusive right of governing themselves as a free, sovereign, and independent state. They may alter or abolish the constitution and form of government whenever they deem it necessary.

    These are just some examples. All states have their own constitution and laws. Within those laws you will usually find something that refers to seceding in some form or another.

    [The Montana section came from my sisters friend that lives there and I haven't confirmed the information but she was insistent that it was correct. All other facts were looked up and confirmed by me.]

  6. #16
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    Re: Could you justify secession?

    Quote Originally Posted by Gojo View Post
    Regarding secession of a state, there is a theory about how Texas could ďsecedeĒ from the United States. In the agreement with the U.S. when it became a state Texas has the right, through a vote, to divide into five separate states. Itís theorized that if this was to happen it would be challenged in the courts by the U. S., making it to the Supreme Court. Itís then theorized that they would not allow Texas to become five states, because it would give them so many seats in the Senate (ten versus two). Therefore the Supreme Court would have to deny this, which would then nullify and void the agreement that brought Texas into the union. This would allow Texas to be a separate nation.
    Who exactly has theorized this?

    This from the Montana Constitution which overrides the US Constitution.
    State constitutions do not override the US Constitution.
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    Re: Could you justify secession?

    Just about anything is possible/justifiable. Feasibility significantly limits these possibilities.

    I'm not sure what you are trying to get at, here.
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  8. #18
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    Re: Could you justify secession?

    Of course it is justifiable in some circumstances as has been noted by most.

    Personally I'd say it depends on the context but I'd set the bar pretty low, as I'm a decentralist, and probably recommend a splitting up of the US as it is. It is far too big, 300 million people makes democracy or much accountable gov't meaningless, and bloated and although there would be danger from Russia/China that perhaps could be solved easily enough through a loose confederation.

    But really it is not succession itself that matters too much in such situations, one's where a reasonably stable nationality exists as autonomy. This could be secured without full separation, at least if the libs play ball.

    But utlimately it is not really my business, I'm more interested in stopping the forming of a parallel United state of Europe, or at least one that includes Britain.
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    Re: Could you justify secession?

    Quote Originally Posted by RightinNYC View Post
    Who exactly has theorized this?



    State constitutions do not override the US Constitution.
    Tom DeLay, to answer your first question and here is one link for that story:

    DeLay Offers New Theory of Texas Secession | TPM

    Governer Rick Perry read it himself before opening his mouth on National TV. You can find that story on Fox, CNN, MSMBC and just about everywhere else on the internet.
    I did go to the states website and read it myself because I don't trust Wikipedia to be 100% accurate.

    As for your last statement, I figured that to be inaccurate myself. It was a direct quote from someone that lives there and I wasn't about to stand behind it as a fact when I couldn't confirm or deny any part of the lady's story so I added that foot note instead.

  10. #20
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    Re: Could you justify secession?

    The problem with this poll is that "always wrong" part.

    The reason I voted "no" was that it's not allowed by the Constitution.

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