A Leftist is FOR the following list

obvious Child · Apr 17, 2009

1) For Smaller government
2) For Early reduction of debt
3) For Small debts and deficits
4) For Reduction in salaries of Congress members
5) For Forcing the president to abide to the powers given to the executive office by the COTUS
6) For Rejecting several of Bush's judge picks because they legislated from the bench (Brown anyone?)
7) For Non-interventionist government
8) More Free trade
9) Responsible taxation
10) Pro-Elimination of the corporate tax
11) For Stopping Bush's socialist drug bill
12) Pro-Elimination of social security

Ethereal · Apr 17, 2009

obvious Child said:
1) For Smaller government
2) For Early reduction of debt
3) For Small debts and deficits
4) For Reduction in salaries of Congress members
5) For Forcing the president to abide to the powers given to the executive office by the COTUS
6) For Rejecting several of Bush's judge picks because they legislated from the bench (Brown anyone?)
7) For Non-interventionist government
8) More Free trade
9) Responsible taxation
10) Pro-Elimination of the corporate tax
11) For Stopping Bush's socialist drug bill
12) Pro-Elimination of social security

Obviously a question of semantics. Not interested in playing that game, but I will say this, advocating a policy is not the same as implementing it. Actions speak louder than words.

obvious Child · Apr 17, 2009

Ethereal said:
Obviously a question of semantics. Not interested in playing that game, but I will say this, advocating a policy is not the same as implementing it. Actions speak louder than words.

A leftist would be for neither advocating nor implementation of that list.

Ethereal · Apr 17, 2009

obvious Child said:
A leftist would be for neither advocating nor implementation of that list.

That's what I immediately assumed, but I also assumed you had an ulterior motive for asking a seemingly simple question. If that's not the case:

No, a "leftist" is not typically for the following...

Kandahar · Apr 18, 2009

Uhh it depends on the person, obviously. I consider myself more to the left than the right, and I support some of the things on that list. #2, #3, #8, #9, and #10. And sometimes #7, depending on the circumstances.

Goobieman · Apr 20, 2009

1) For Smaller government

No.

2) For Early reduction of debt

No.

3) For Small debts and deficits

No.

4) For Reduction in salaries of Congress members

I cannot say for sure, but I have not seen any that have held this position.

5) For Forcing the president to abide to the powers given to the executive office by the COTUS

This depends entirely on if the Preasident is a Republican or not.
And so, the answer is no.

6) For Rejecting several of Bush's judge picks because they legislated from the bench (Brown anyone?)

Leftists oposed GWBs nominations because GWB nominated them.

7) For Non-interventionist government

No

8) More Free trade

No

9) Responsible taxation

Given their defintion of 'responsible' - yes.
Given the -actual- definition of responoble - no.

10) Pro-Elimination of the corporate tax

No

11) For Stopping Bush's socialist drug bill

Not just no, but hell no.

12) Pro-Elimination of social security

See above.

Wessexman · Apr 20, 2009

Leftist is a broad term it ranges from anarchists to the mildy liberal and everything in between.

They could hold a myriad of positions on those questions.

celticlord · Apr 20, 2009

Frankly, I don't give a damn if someone is left-wing, right-wing, or buffalo-wing, so long as he leaves my tax dollars in my wallet where they belong.

disneydude · Apr 21, 2009

celticlord said:
Frankly, I don't give a damn if someone is left-wing, right-wing, or buffalo-wing, so long as he leaves my tax dollars in my wallet where they belong.

I love people who act like they don't have to pay any taxes and that all of their "tax dollars" belong in their wallet.

What makes you think that you are entitled to live in America and enjoy all that we have here without having to pay for it?

Oh...and before you give me the usual answer about some people living on welfare and bilking the system to justify your own desires for a free ride...let me assure you, I don't agree with that either.

Paying taxes is part of the responsibility and requirements for living in this Country.

Wessexman · Apr 21, 2009

disneydude said:
I love people who act like they don't have to pay any taxes and that all of their "tax dollars" belong in their wallet.

What makes you think that you are entitled to live in America and enjoy all that we have here without having to pay for it?

Oh...and before you give me the usual answer about some people living on welfare and bilking the system to justify your own desires for a free ride...let me assure you, I don't agree with that either.

Paying taxes is part of the responsibility and requirements for living in this Country.

I think he is more arguing against the level of taxes and he is certainly correct, to a degree at leat, unless you think it would be fine for the gov't to confiscate all property without compensation. If you don't believe in that then there is a limit to the taxes you think people have to pay, however high you set it.

disneydude · Apr 21, 2009

Wessexman said:
I think he is more arguing against the level of taxes and he is certainly correct, to a degree at leat, unless you think it would be fine for the gov't to confiscate all property without compensation. If you don't believe in that then there is a limit to the taxes you think people have to pay, however high you set it.

Sure...that's what they all claim, but these people cry about having to pay taxes no matter what the amount is.
Its the mentality that they shouldn't have to pay anything and magically everything that we have will still be here.

I could be wrong, but I think our tax rate is below that of many other countries with similar quality of life.
Personally, I think our tax rate is about right. I don't mind paying taxes because I enjoy the benefits that those taxes allow us to have in this country.

celticlord · Apr 21, 2009

disneydude said:
Paying taxes is part of the responsibility and requirements for living in this Country.

Only if this suddenly became the People's Republic of China.

Article 56 of their constitution:

It is the duty of citizens of the People's Republic of China to pay taxes in accordance with the law.

The Supreme Court, on the other hand, in Gregory v Helvering, rejected your thesis:

The legal right of a taxpayer to decrease the amount of what otherwise would be his taxes, or altogether avoid them, by means which the law permits, cannot be doubted.

Or, as Judge Learned Hand noted, on the US Second Court of Appeals earlier ruling on that same case:

Anyone may arrange his affairs so that his taxes shall be as low as possible; he is not bound to choose that pattern which best pays the treasury. There is not even a patriotic duty to increase one's taxes. Over and over again the Courts have said that there is nothing sinister in so arranging affairs as to keep taxes as low as possible. Everyone does it, rich and poor alike and all do right, for nobody owes any public duty to pay more than the law demands.

I want the government small, I want government services few, because I don't want to pay taxes. Anyone who asserts a duty to the contrary is ignorant of the nature of liberty.

celticlord · Apr 21, 2009

disneydude said:
Its the mentality that they shouldn't have to pay anything and magically everything that we have will still be here.

My mentality is that I don't pay anything and magically parasitical and intrusive government will be gone.

My mentality is that government is under the best of circumstances a necessary evil, and under all circumstances more evil than necessary.

Thoreau was rather more artful in his articulation:

Government is at best but an expedient; but most governments are usually, and all governments are sometimes, inexpedient. The objections which have been brought against a standing army, and they are many and weighty, and deserve to prevail, may also at last be brought against a standing government.

disneydude · Apr 21, 2009

celticlord said:
My mentality is that I don't pay anything and magically parasitical and intrusive government will be gone.

My mentality is that government is under the best of circumstances a necessary evil, and under all circumstances more evil than necessary.

Thoreau was rather more artful in his articulation:

Face it....you want a free ride in the same way that the stereotypical welfare mom does. You want to enjoy the benefits of living in this country but you don't want to pay for it.

(interestingly....there is nothing in any of the "Caselaw" that you attempt to cite that says that you are entitled to a free ride).

This country has become so "me first"/selfish over the years that we have lost sight of the thread that holds this country together.

Sure...no one is entitled to a free ride, but that includes those who want to keep all of their dollars in their own wallet as much as it applies to those who would seek to bilk the welfare system.

Vader · Apr 21, 2009

obvious Child said:
1) For Smaller government
2) For Early reduction of debt
3) For Small debts and deficits
4) For Reduction in salaries of Congress members
5) For Forcing the president to abide to the powers given to the executive office by the COTUS
6) For Rejecting several of Bush's judge picks because they legislated from the bench (Brown anyone?)
7) For Non-interventionist government
8) More Free trade
9) Responsible taxation
10) Pro-Elimination of the corporate tax
11) For Stopping Bush's socialist drug bill
12) Pro-Elimination of social security

This list is a republican's wet dream!

ReverendHellh0und · Apr 21, 2009

He is attempting to bait zimmer since his bait didn't work in the section of this forum that shall not be named.

:thumbs:

disneydude · Apr 21, 2009

Vader said:
This list is a republican's wet dream!

What Republicans are you talking about?

1) For Smaller government - The GOP has become the party of HUGE government. The GOP consistently attempts for more government involvement in personal affairs, morality, religion.

2) For Early reduction of debt - That is just hilarious

3) For Small debts and deficits - see #2
4) For Reduction in salaries of Congress members -?

5) For Forcing the president to abide to the powers given to the executive office by the COTUS - HAHAHA....that couldn't be farther from the truth. The GOP sat back for the last decade and allowed the largest usurpation of power in the history of this country.

6) For Rejecting several of Bush's judge picks because they legislated from the bench (Brown anyone?) - ?

7) For Non-interventionist government - see above

8) More Free trade

9) Responsible taxation - What this means to the GOP is cutting taxes for the wealthiest Americans and making the middle and working classes shoulder more of the burden.

10) Pro-Elimination of the corporate tax - in other words...more corporate welfare.

11) For Stopping Bush's socialist drug bill -

12) Pro-Elimination of social security - Well...you got one right here. The GOP would love to get ride of social security if they thought that they could.

BigRed · Apr 21, 2009

Ethereal said:
Obviously a question of semantics. Not interested in playing that game, but I will say this, advocating a policy is not the same as implementing it. Actions speak louder than words.

And it is the rhetoric of these things from Republicans that has hurt the libertarian/free market/whatever cause.

The Republicans behind the Reagan Revolution in the 1980's certainly sounded nice; as did the Republicans with the 'Contract with America' in the mid-1990's; as did the Republicans coming in behind Bush in 2000 with talk of no more 'nation-building'.

Yet, in all instances, the action didn't match the rhetoric and it has created the misconception that the rhetoric and action did match and therefore, aren't worthy of practicing anymore.

It sucks.

celticlord · Apr 21, 2009

disneydude said:
Face it....you want a free ride in the same way that the stereotypical welfare mom does. You want to enjoy the benefits of living in this country but you don't want to pay for it.

Face it, you have no clue what you're talking about.

disneydude · Apr 21, 2009

celticlord said:
Face it, you have no clue what you're talking about.

Au contrar....sometimes people cannot see the truth that is staring them in the face.

Kandahar · Apr 21, 2009

celticlord said:
The Supreme Court, on the other hand, in Gregory v Helvering, rejected your thesis:

Or, as Judge Learned Hand noted, on the US Second Court of Appeals earlier ruling on that same case:

:spin:
Nowhere in either of those decisions did the courts say that people don't have to pay their taxes. They said that people don't have to pay MORE taxes than they're legally required to pay. I don't think you'll find anyone of any political ideology who disagrees with that.

Goobieman · Apr 21, 2009

Kandahar said:
:spin:
Nowhere in either of those decisions did the courts say that people don't have to pay their taxes. They said that people don't have to pay MORE taxes than they're legally required to pay. I don't think you'll find anyone of any political ideology who disagrees with that.

I guess that depends... there are many who villify the 'rich' for using every tax break they can find in order to lower their taxes as much as possible.

celticlord · Apr 21, 2009

Kandahar said:
Nowhere in either of those decisions did the courts say that people don't have to pay their taxes. They said that people don't have to pay MORE taxes than they're legally required to pay. I don't think you'll find anyone of any political ideology who disagrees with that.

Joe Biden says otherwise. Channeling the People's Republic of China, the gaffe-machine cum Vice President pontificates about how it's "patriotic" to pay taxes.

disneydude · Apr 21, 2009

celticlord said:
Joe Biden says otherwise. Channeling the People's Republic of China, the gaffe-machine cum Vice President pontificates about how it's "patriotic" to pay taxes.

It IS patriotic to pay your taxes. Anyone who loves this Country would not try to justify how they can save every dollar for their own wallet.

See...that's the difference between people who are patriotic and those who claim to be "patriotic". The former understand the principles and sacrifices that need to be made to enjoy our way of life, the other believe that patriotism is waving a flag and trying to figure out how they can avoid paying as little as possible for the things that we all enjoy.

Kandahar · Apr 21, 2009

Goobieman said:
I guess that depends... there are many who villify the 'rich' for using every tax break they can find in order to lower their taxes as much as possible.

But even those people merely seek to change the tax code to make it harder for the rich to deduct expenses...they don't seek to throw them in jail for taking advantage of the current tax code.

I bet if you asked those same people if they thought the rich were obligated to pay more in taxes than the law requires of them, most of them would say no.

A Leftist is FOR the following list

A Leftist is FOR the following list

Disagree, a leftist is AGAINST the items on that list

Agree, a leftists is FOR the items on that list

Equal Opportunity Hater

Equal Opportunity Hater

Enemy Combatant

Dorset Patriot

Well-known member

Dorset Patriot

Well-known member

Well-known member

I don't respect you.

Member

Well-known member

Enemy Combatant

Well-known member

Enemy Combatant