A Leftist is FOR the following list

celticlord said:

Joe Biden says otherwise. Channeling the People's Republic of China, the gaffe-machine cum Vice President pontificates about how it's "patriotic" to pay taxes.

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I'm still trying to figure out how you made the logical leap from "It's patriotic to pay taxes" to "People are obligated to pay more taxes than the tax code requires of them."

disneydude said:

It IS patriotic to pay your taxes. Anyone who loves this Country would not try to justify how they can save every dollar for their own wallet.

See...that's the difference between people who are patriotic and those who claim to be "patriotic". The former understand the principles and sacrifices that need to be made to enjoy our way of life, the other believe that patriotism is waving a flag and trying to figure out how they can avoid paying as little as possible for the things that we all enjoy.

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Hmm... looks like someone attended the GWB School of Propaganda, where he learned to paint those that disagree with him as unpatriotic.
:roll:

disneydude said:

Sure...that's what they all claim, but these people cry about having to pay taxes no matter what the amount is.
Its the mentality that they shouldn't have to pay anything and magically everything that we have will still be here.

I could be wrong, but I think our tax rate is below that of many other countries with similar quality of life.
Personally, I think our tax rate is about right. I don't mind paying taxes because I enjoy the benefits that those taxes allow us to have in this country.

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All Western countries pay far too much in taxes in my opinion and the wrong sort of taxes, imho our tax systems are just schemes to take money from the average person and give it to the rich and corporations, but that certainly does not mean I want no taxes and I doubt celticlord does either.

Wessexman said:

All Western countries pay far too much in taxes in my opinion and the wrong sort of taxes, imho our tax systems are just schemes to take money from the average person and give it to the rich and corporations, but that certainly does not mean I want no taxes and I doubt celticlord does either.

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As a purely philosophical proposition, I most assuredly "want" no taxes. I also "want" free beer, free steak, and free winning lottery tickets.

Since I can't have free beer or free steak, I am willing to part with a bit of my coin to indulge in both. Since I can't have free winning lottery tickets, and since winning lottery tickets are slightly more rare than a virgin in Paris, I am generally not willing to part with any of my coin to play the lottery.

No, I don't want to pay taxes. Anyone who wants to pay taxes is a damn fool and deserves to lose every dime he's got. I will, however, pay those taxes necessary to support those things I want government to do....which generally ain't much (fix roads, keep the bad guys on the other side of the border, and that's pretty much it).

celticlord said:

No, I don't want to pay taxes. Anyone who wants to pay taxes is a damn fool and deserves to lose every dime he's got. I will, however, pay those taxes necessary to support those things I want government to do....which generally ain't much (fix roads, keep the bad guys on the other side of the border, and that's pretty much it).

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So then your argument isn't that taxes are inherently too high, it's that they're misappropriated. That's a fair enough argument. But you want the government to spend money on certain things, I want government to spend money on certain other things, and someone else wants government to spend money on certain other things. That's democracy for you.

IMO your point would be better served by arguing against those programs you dislike than by arguing against the level of taxation.

Kandahar said:

So then your argument isn't that taxes are inherently too high, it's that they're misappropriated. That's a fair enough argument. But you want the government to spend money on certain things, I want government to spend money on certain other things, and someone else wants government to spend money on certain other things. That's democracy for you.

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No, that's not democracy. That's self-indulgence.

Yes, everybody has their pet programs they like to see from government, but it is disingenuous to consider all such programs equal in merit or equal in value.

Moreover, not everyone places the same value on the same programs. Even the services I tend to want from government I don't value highly for the most part (although keeping the bad guys on the other side of the border is definitely valuable and important).

Kandahar said:

IMO your point would be better served by arguing against those programs you dislike than by arguing against the level of taxation.

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Simply put, you're wrong. The level of taxation is the problem. Dear Leader and the rest of his ilk pontificate about Americans "making hard choices", but won't make any themselves. That much is obvious by his insane budget, and the spending spree laughingly called a stimulus package. There are no "hard choices", none at all. Handouts for every special interest, and double if you are a Wall Street banker that contributed to the right Democrats.

Which is why the level of taxation is the problem. The notion that taxes can be raised to fund everybody's spending desires is irrational and bereft of any economic legitimacy. Only by keeping taxes low and pushing them ever lower can truly difficult choices between guns and butter get made. Only by keeping taxes low and pushing taxes lower can real debate on the real value of government-provided services get started. Setting taxation levels to cover every program desired by anybody (or at least any Democrat) prevents any and all considerations of value, and thus makes choosing completely impossible.

disneydude said:

It IS patriotic to pay your taxes. Anyone who loves this Country would not try to justify how they can save every dollar for their own wallet.

See...that's the difference between people who are patriotic and those who claim to be "patriotic". The former understand the principles and sacrifices that need to be made to enjoy our way of life, the other believe that patriotism is waving a flag and trying to figure out how they can avoid paying as little as possible for the things that we all enjoy.

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So patriotism to you, is sacrificing to the state to enjoy life?

That is a warped sense of patriotism for one and certainly a distorted view of a joyful life.

disneydude said:

It IS patriotic to pay your taxes. Anyone who loves this Country would not try to justify how they can save every dollar for their own wallet.

See...that's the difference between people who are patriotic and those who claim to be "patriotic". The former understand the principles and sacrifices that need to be made to enjoy our way of life, the other believe that patriotism is waving a flag and trying to figure out how they can avoid paying as little as possible for the things that we all enjoy.

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Patriotic is knowing the IRS is evil and wishing to do away with that nasty Beast. :2razz:

I disagree with #8, and the rest -- I don't have much of an idea on.

More free trade, in my view is more a rightist thing. Free trade = free market = laissez-faire capitalism.

Examples of anti-free trade leftists can be found in Communist countries' governments, where their central governments imposes economic barriers, in order to keep everyone equal.

George VI said:

I disagree with #8, and the rest -- I don't have much of an idea on.

More free trade, in my view is more a rightist thing. Free trade = free market = laissez-faire capitalism.

Examples of anti-free trade leftists can be found in Communist countries' governments, where their central governments imposes economic barriers, in order to keep everyone equal.

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Traditionally the Democratic Party has been the more pro-trade party...it's only in the last 30 years or so that the unions got a stick up their asses about it, and so Democratic politicians have been behaving like idiots to appease them.

If one good thing comes from this economic crisis, perhaps it will be the demise of the UAW and the weakening of unions all over the country. Then perhaps Democrats will be less afraid to stand up for free trade, which they know perfectly well is a sound economic policy.

Goobieman said:

No.

No.

No.

I cannot say for sure, but I have not seen any that have held this position.

This depends entirely on if the Preasident is a Republican or not.
And so, the answer is no.

Leftists oposed GWBs nominations because GWB nominated them.

No

No

Given their defintion of 'responsible' - yes.
Given the -actual- definition of responoble - no.

No

Not just no, but hell no.

See above.

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You don't even know what a "leftist" is, and are totally unqualified to speak for them, whatever they are.
I will tell you this, what you call left....is the center. You, my friend, are on the fringe right.

WillRockwell said:

You don't even know what a "leftist" is, and are totally unqualified to speak for them, whatever they are.
I will tell you this, what you call left....is the center. You, my friend, are on the fringe right.

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The center of what? Of what do you claim to be the center?

In looking it up to make sure I was correct I found this definition.

In politics, left-wing, leftist, and the Left are terms applied to positions that focus on gradual or radical progressivism and a more egalitarian distribution of wealth and privilege. Also see Barack Hussien Obama, Joe Biben, Nasty Piglousy, Hairless Reid.

Kandahar said:

Traditionally the Democratic Party has been the more pro-trade party...it's only in the last 30 years or so that the unions got a stick up their asses about it, and so Democratic politicians have been behaving like idiots to appease them.

If one good thing comes from this economic crisis, perhaps it will be the demise of the UAW and the weakening of unions all over the country. Then perhaps Democrats will be less afraid to stand up for free trade, which they know perfectly well is a sound economic policy.

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If they become more free trade, then I might just convert over to democrat, but for now, I'm sticking it up with the Republicans. I wouldn't change being conservative though, just I'm more of a free-trade man, too.

WillRockwell said:

You don't even know what a "leftist" is, and are totally unqualified to speak for them, whatever they are.
I will tell you this, what you call left....is the center. You, my friend, are on the fringe right.

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Thank you for, yet again, illustrating beyond any doubt that you do not have any idea whatsoever what you are talking about.

disneydude said:

It IS patriotic to pay your taxes. Anyone who loves this Country would not try to justify how they can save every dollar for their own wallet.

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Nope. It's patriotic to support those aspects of the government that comply with the Constitution, and that means paying taxes to support those. Since 90% of government spending is in violation of the Constitution, it's not unpatriotic to not want to pay taxes.

See? That's the difference between patriots, who know what their country is supposed to stand for, and the whiners, who claim it's patriotic to pay taxes merely because some plagiaristic fool they voted for told them it was.

Kandahar said:

So then your argument isn't that taxes are inherently too high, it's that they're misappropriated. That's a fair enough argument. But you want the government to spend money on certain things, I want government to spend money on certain other things, and someone else wants government to spend money on certain other things. That's democracy for you.

IMO your point would be better served by arguing against those programs you dislike than by arguing against the level of taxation.

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Yeah, that's democracy all righty.

Fortunately, the United States is a Constitutional republic, not a democracy, and the public is only allowed, by that Constitution, to spend federal tax dollars on issues specifically defined in Article 1, Section 8 of that Constitution, and almost everything the socialist whiny left wants is covered by the Tenth Amendment, not Article 1, Section 8.

Scarecrow Akhbar said:

Yeah, that's democracy all righty.

Fortunately, the United States is a Constitutional republic, not a democracy, and the public is only allowed, by that Constitution, to spend federal tax dollars on issues specifically defined in Article 1, Section 8 of that Constitution, and almost everything the socialist whiny left wants is covered by the Tenth Amendment, not Article 1, Section 8.

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The Supreme Court has stated otherwise. And given the precedent and the fact that an enormous amount of our government is built around that decision, it is highly unlikely that it will ever be reversed. So get used to it.