View Poll Results: What do you think about putting stricter regulations on bullets rather than guns?

Voters
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  • I am pro-gun rights, and I would SUPPORT this.

    3 7.14%
  • I am pro-gun rights, and I would be AGAINST this.

    34 80.95%
  • I am anti-gun rights, and I would SUPPORT this.

    4 9.52%
  • I am anti-gun rights, and I would be AGAINST this.

    0 0%
  • Other

    1 2.38%
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Thread: Bullet Control

  1. #61
    Banned Goobieman's Avatar
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    Re: Bullet Control

    Quote Originally Posted by Cephus View Post
    It mentions the right of the people to keep and bear arms AS THE SECOND HALF OF A SENTENCE! You don't get to ignore the first half of the sentence because it doesn't get you what you want.
    I have explaied my position to sufficiently negate your argument.

    "The right of the people to keep and bear arms" is protected, not "The right of the people to participate in the militia"

    The right of the people to keep and bear arms, in total, was protected; participation in the militia is a subset of that right.

    The REST of the right includes things like personal self-sefense, hunting, etc.

    I can't believe I have to point that out.

  2. #62
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    Re: Bullet Control

    Quote Originally Posted by Goobieman View Post
    I have explaied my position to sufficiently negate your argument.

    "The right of the people to keep and bear arms" is protected, not "The right of the people to participate in the militia"

    The right of the people to keep and bear arms, in total, was protected; participation in the militia is a subset of that right.

    The REST of the right includes things like personal self-sefense, hunting, etc.

    I can't believe I have to point that out.
    You keep asserting that, you just cannot demonstrate it from the wording of the second amendment. I'm not arguing that those shouldn't be rights, just that you cannot get them solely from the second amendment. It simply supports no such thing.
    There is nothing demonstrably true that religion can provide the world that cannot be achieved more rationally through entirely secular means.

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  3. #63
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    Re: Bullet Control

    Quote Originally Posted by Harshaw View Post
    And you don't get to call the militia clause the operative, functional part of the Amendment just to get what YOU want.
    It has nothing to do with what anyone wants, it has to do with acknowledging what the text says, and it makes a single statement that gun rights advocates ignore half of because it invalidates their arguments.

    There are plenty of arguments that can be made for gun rights, many of which I'll agree with entirely, but this isn't one of them.
    There is nothing demonstrably true that religion can provide the world that cannot be achieved more rationally through entirely secular means.

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  4. #64
    Banned Goobieman's Avatar
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    Re: Bullet Control

    Quote Originally Posted by Cephus View Post
    You keep asserting that, you just cannot demonstrate it from the wording of the second amendment.
    That's OK -- I dont mind repeating myeslf.

    It says:

    "The right of the people to keep and bear arms"
    not
    "The right of the people to bear arms in service of the militia"

    Unless you can show that "the right of the people to keep and bear arms" includes doing so ONLY when in militia service, there is no way to argue that the "right to keep and bear arms" excludes all of the OTHER things you can legitimately do with a firearm.

    You're arguing that the founders protected the right of the people to have and use weapons in defense of their town, county and state, but not their homes, their families or themselves. Thats completely unsupportable.

  5. #65
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    Re: Bullet Control

    Quote Originally Posted by Goobieman View Post
    That's OK -- I dont mind repeating myeslf.

    It says:

    "The right of the people to keep and bear arms"
    not
    "The right of the people to bear arms in service of the militia"

    Unless you can show that "the right of the people to keep and bear arms" includes doing so ONLY when in militia service, there is no way to argue that the "right to keep and bear arms" excludes all of the OTHER things you can legitimately do with a firearm.

    You're arguing that the founders protected the right of the people to have and use weapons in defense of their town, county and state, but not their homes, their families or themselves. Thats completely unsupportable.
    No, it says, and I quote:

    A well regulated Militia, being necessary to the security of a free State, the right of the people to keep and bear Arms, shall not be infringed.

    That is a single sentence and must be taken as such. It is a single idea and taken in the context in which it was written, it has a specific meaning. Your desire to strip off the first 13 words of the sentence only proves your dishonesty.
    There is nothing demonstrably true that religion can provide the world that cannot be achieved more rationally through entirely secular means.

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  6. #66
    Banned Goobieman's Avatar
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    Re: Bullet Control

    Quote Originally Posted by Cephus View Post
    No, it says, and I quote:

    A well regulated Militia, being necessary to the security of a free State, the right of the people to keep and bear Arms, shall not be infringed.

    That is a single sentence and must be taken as such. It is a single idea and taken in the context in which it was written, it has a specific meaning. Your desire to strip off the first 13 words of the sentence only proves your dishonesty.
    Nothng here negates anything I said, or the point that I made.

  7. #67
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    Re: Bullet Control

    Ok I've like completely changed my opinion on this topic now.

    Thanks Goobieman.

    (I'm not being sarcastic)


  8. #68
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    Re: Bullet Control

    Quote Originally Posted by Cephus View Post
    That is a single sentence and must be taken as such. It is a single idea and taken in the context in which it was written, it has a specific meaning. Your desire to strip off the first 13 words of the sentence only proves your dishonesty.
    No, it is not a single idea. There are two distinct ideas expressed in the sentence:

    1. The right of the people, who form the militia, to keep and bear arms is necessary for the security of a free State.

    2. The right of the people to keep and bear arms shall not be infringed.

    One sentence, but two ideas. The first serves as justification for the second, which is the legal proscription binding upon government.

  9. #69
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    Re: Bullet Control

    It would be funny, if it weren't so sad, that to believe the 2A does not contain an individual right to keep and carry arms for all lawful purposes, you must:

    Believe that the 1st, 3rd, 4th, 5th and etc Amendments of the Bill of Rights are all individual rights of the people protecting all lawful expressions of free speech, the press, religion, assembly, vs seach/seizure, etc...

    But the 2nd, that says "the people" explicitly, isn't.


    The first Amendment says "Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion..." Yet this has been upheld widely to restrict the STATES from having an official religion or endorsing one over another, even though it doesn't say that. Almost every other right in the BoR is interpreted in favor of the individual when there is any question or doubt...except the 2nd, which says "the right of the people" plainly.

    Disingenuous, says I.


    "I ask, sir, what is the militia? It is the whole people, except for a few public officials."
    -George Mason, 3 Elliot, Debates at 425-426.

    "A militia, when properly formed, are in fact the people themselves...and include all men capable of bearing arms."
    -Richard Henry Lee, Additional Letters from the Federal Farmer (1788) at 169.
    Laws that forbid the carrying of arms...disarm only those who are neither inclined nor determined to commit crimes...Such laws make things worse for the assaulted and better for the assailants; they serve rather to encourage than to prevent homicides, for an unarmed man may be attacked with greater confidence than an armed man."
    -Thomas Jefferson, quoting Cesare Beccaria.

    "...arms...discourage and keep the invader and plunderer in awe, and preserve order in the world as well as property. ...Horrid mischief would ensue were (the law-abiding) deprived the use of them."
    -Thomas Paine.
    G.
    Last edited by Goshin; 04-17-09 at 08:56 PM.

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  10. #70
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    Re: Bullet Control

    Cephus, read anything concerning the Founding Fathers and you will obtain a unique - not to mention accurate - understanding of the Second Amendment, because it is you who is willfully ignoring context by failing to include the personal interpretation of the men who drafted said Amendment. The Founding Fathers' view on the Second Amendment was explicit; it was an inviolate personal right without exception or qualification. Not a one can be quoted as saying otherwise. Jefferson had this to say:

    "...what country can preserve it's liberties if their rulers are not warned from time to time that their people preserve the spirit of resistance? let them take arms. the remedy is to set them right as to facts, pardon & pacify them. what signify a few lives lost in a century or two? the tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots & tyrants. it is it's natural manure. [1]"

    There is nothing ambiguous about that statement and there is nothing to suggest any of the Founding Fathers thought otherwise. For your argument to hold water we must first believe that the Founding Fathers were just prone to bloviating. Why would they include a disparate interpretation of the right to keep and bear arms in the US Constitution? It defies reason.

    [1] - Transcript of letter: Thomas Jefferson to William Smith - Thomas Jefferson (Library of Congress Exhibition)

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