View Poll Results: Gay marriage; where do you fall?

Voters
61. You may not vote on this poll
  • I support gay marriage as a Federal mandated "right"

    24 39.34%
  • I support GM on a state to state basis IF decided by the citizens or passed by its Legislature

    14 22.95%
  • I support State Courts dictating to the legistlature that gay marriage is a right

    7 11.48%
  • I believe a Constitutional Amendment should be passed baning gay marriage

    19 31.15%
  • I do not believe Gay Marriage should ever be a right

    24 39.34%
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Thread: Gay marriage

  1. #41
    Dorset Patriot
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    Re: Gay marriage

    Quote Originally Posted by Kandahar View Post
    Saying you aren't afraid of minor distortions is all well and good, but sooner or later people will start filing lawsuits for the reasons in that list (and other ambiguous situations that aren't on the list). When that happens, what are the federal courts going to do? Tell the plaintiffs/prosecutors and defendants to figure it out on their own? That seems highly unlikely. They're going to eventually rule that states must recognize marriages in other states, which will effectively legalize gay marriage nationwide.
    Of course they are. The federal judiciary in the US has hardly been the most conservative, anti-activist body in recent decades has it.

    All I'm saying is minor and even some moderate distortions to geometrical politics are fine, even good sometimes, despite the creed what the creed of universalist, centralist liberalism demands these days.

    England must leave the EU now!
    "It is written in the eternal constitution that men of intemperate minds cannot be free. Their passions forge their fetters." - Edmund Burke

  2. #42
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    Re: Gay marriage

    Quote Originally Posted by Unrein View Post
    My ass it is. Name one reason marriage should be a government institution.
    Because marriage tends to produce stronger communities, more disposable wealth which helps the economy and a more stable populace, all of which are things which the government, as representatives of the people, ought to be supporting.
    There is nothing demonstrably true that religion can provide the world that cannot be achieved more rationally through entirely secular means.

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  3. #43
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    Re: Gay marriage

    Quote Originally Posted by Cephus View Post
    Because marriage tends to produce stronger communities, more disposable wealth which helps the economy and a more stable populace, all of which are things which the government, as representatives of the people, ought to be supporting.
    All excellent points, particularly those about community and stability. Although marriage is perhaps the the rather perfect residue of decent, strong kinship and community bonds.

    You should remember though that to my recollection Unrein is a completely atomistic individualist or egoist, ie no such thing as society, kind of a guy(except strangely on economics.). So he's probably not too impressed by talk of community and stable social bonds.
    Last edited by Wessexman; 04-16-09 at 09:28 PM.
    "It is written in the eternal constitution that men of intemperate minds cannot be free. Their passions forge their fetters." - Edmund Burke

  4. #44
    Advisor Unrein's Avatar
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    Re: Gay marriage

    Quote Originally Posted by Cephus View Post
    Because marriage tends to produce stronger communities,
    But why should the government be involved?

    more disposable wealth which helps the economy and a more stable populace,
    You don't see the problem that creates?

    all of which are things which the government, as representatives of the people, ought to be supporting.
    Supporting is different than incentivising. Using government benefits to entice people into marriage does nothing but pollute the idea. People who love each other and have intent to commit to one another will do it whether there is a steak and the end of a string being dangled in front of them or not.

    Now what you are doing is motivating couples who aren't committed at heart but want benefits, so they rush into marriage needlessly just to find out they hate each other. People who have a sincere commitment will 'marry' and settle down with or without benefits, the only marriage that government benefits could possible produce are toxic ones. Higher divorce rates and fatherless children.

    Also, not to mention, this system is unfair toward single people. Not everyone can find love, they shouldn't be forced to pay a slightly higher tax burden over it. The married couple is already receiving inherent economic benefits by moving in with one another and sharing commodities, they don't need extra tax breaks over it.

    And this leaves us with one last thing. Physical rights. Any person should be allowed to write a contract with another person directing their will, visitation rights and adoption of children, whether they are married or just close friends. People should be allowed to initiate those rights between one another regardless of their marital status.

  5. #45
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    Re: Gay marriage

    Quote Originally Posted by Wessexman View Post
    You should remember though that to my recollection Unrein is a completely atomistic individualist or egoist, ie no such thing as society, kind of a guy(except strangely on economics.).
    I'am neither saying society doesn't exist, nor that it isn't important. I'am saying that government directed social engineering or people's personal lives and relationships pollutes society, it doesn't abet it.

    And the economy is not the same thing. The placement of material goods and direction of production is not the same thing as personal freedom to one's own body and relationship to other people.

  6. #46
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    Re: Gay marriage

    Quote Originally Posted by Unrein View Post
    I'am neither saying society doesn't exist, nor that it isn't important. I'am saying that government directed social engineering or people's personal lives and relationships pollutes society, it doesn't abet it.
    Your points came out to the same thing.

    And the economy is not the same thing. The placement of material goods and direction of production is not the same thing as personal freedom to one's own body and relationship to other people.
    This is where you make no sense, property and the economy are very important in the lives of individuals, as important to society as the right for homosexuals to marry.
    "It is written in the eternal constitution that men of intemperate minds cannot be free. Their passions forge their fetters." - Edmund Burke

  7. #47
    Stigmatized! End R Word! Kali's Avatar
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    Re: Gay marriage

    I am sad at these poll results! It seems as if some folks still have backwards thinking that Gay Marriage should never be a right. What is wrong with people

  8. #48
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    Re: Gay marriage

    Quote Originally Posted by Wessexman View Post
    This is where you make no sense, property and the economy are very important in the lives of individuals, as important to society as the right for homosexuals to marry.
    I'am not saying the right for gays to marry isn't important, I am saying using the government to engineer personal social interaction will never help, it will only damage.

  9. #49
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    Re: Gay marriage

    Quote Originally Posted by Unrein View Post
    I'am not saying the right for gays to marry isn't important, I am saying using the government to engineer personal social interaction will never help, it will only damage.
    Gov't is one of many important social associations and relationships, to neglect its place is as bad as too overstate it. Gov't certainly has a role in supporting a healthy society and healthy social associations.

    The reason it requires this light to moderate place is maintaining social stability and authority is because in this day and age there are strict limits to authority of those groups and leaders of social associations. The parent's authority is very circumscribed, as is the that of the kinship group and its pater familias or even mater familias, as is the local community and its leaders, the priests, the employers, the guild/union leaders etc. With the authority of these greatly reduced the state needs to pick up the slack a little.
    Last edited by Wessexman; 04-17-09 at 11:12 PM.
    "It is written in the eternal constitution that men of intemperate minds cannot be free. Their passions forge their fetters." - Edmund Burke

  10. #50
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    Re: Gay marriage

    Quote Originally Posted by Wessexman View Post
    Gov't is one of many important social associations and relationships, to neglect its place is as bad as too overstate it. Gov't certainly has a role in supporting a healthy society and healthy social associations.
    It's role is to represent society, to protect people from violation, and in my opinion to help structure and provide the economic functions, but not to engineer people's personal lives. There are only very limited exception I take to that, all with compliance of reasoning, and marriage is far from making that list.
    Last edited by Unrein; 04-17-09 at 11:12 PM.

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