Should the U.S. Navy shell Somali villages that harbor pirates?

Ambracia · Apr 13, 2009

Shelling is a rather crude and indiscriminate practice. UAV strikes are much more effiecient

Scarecrow Akhbar · Apr 13, 2009

Seems to me that it's a bit drastic.

Pirates don't swim out to take their prey, no. They use boats.

Establish an internationally defined coastal zone for Somali fishermen, and authorize cargo transports to shoot any small coastal vessels outside that zone that refuse to stay outside a 1 km radius from that ship.

Scarecrow Akhbar · Apr 13, 2009

Captain America said:
They say a young man that is not liberal has no heart.

They say that a mature man that is not conservative has no brain.

While I do admire your Lennon approach of "Love, love, love" (and I really do) I am grateful that the mature men makes the decisions on national security.

Keep the faith brother.

Well, I'm gonna let you in on what's obviously a secret that's been well kept from you:

The Kumbaya Singers International have seized the White House and are making policy now. The mature people are gone.

Scarecrow Akhbar · Apr 13, 2009

donsutherland1 said:
Onion Eater,

For signatories of the Geneva Convention relative to the Protection of Civilian Persons in Time of War, civilian protections apply in all conflicts as per Article 3. Prisoner of war status, not the protected status of civilians, is a different matter where certain combatants have greater protections under the Geneva Conventions than others.

This isn't an international conflict, it's merely criminal activity in which the government that would normally be held responsible simply does not exist.

talloulou · Apr 13, 2009

Onion Eater said:
There are too many Somalis anyway. Nobody will miss the ones who live along the coast.

This borders on hate speech. War talk often does but this -in my mind - goes a tad over the line.

talloulou · Apr 13, 2009

Captain America said:
J

F*** those little pigmy mother*******.

For the record, if anything the folks of Somalia are known for being tall. They're not "little pigmy mofos."

I realize those folks are in dire straits over there but it ain't my problem. It's THEIR problem. Their culture, by design it seems, prevents them from being much more than they already are. They make their own bed so let them sleep on their piss-stenched mattresses. But, DON'T TREAD ON ME!" If they insist on making their problem our problem, let's give some REAL problems to deal with.

I don't agree that they themselves are responsible for the entirety of the problems in the region. As to the rest of this I have no idea what it would be like to be born on the horn of Africa but I imagine it's a tad different than saying to some American teen, "meh, pick yourself up by your bootstraps.

Yessir. F*** those retards! I have no human sympathy for those cockroach people.

Moderator's Warning:

Really, can we chill just a bit on the hate speech? It's embarrassing, even for me and I have a thick tolerance level.

talloulou · Apr 13, 2009

celticlord said:
What laws? What nation has jurisdiction in international waters? (answer: NONE).

There is no law involved here. Pirates are attacking other nations' commercial vessels. While they may be lacking the political orientation of terrorists, they are committing what amounts to an act of war. We should respond in kind.

In the case of the villages, the combatants (pirates) are being given shelter, aid, comfort, and resources by the villagers. The villages are therefore legitimate targets.

If the villagers don't want to be targets, let them turn the pirates out and deny them safe harbor. Their choice entirely.

Practically speaking the problem with this is that the villagers are in many cases starving fishermen who own nothing. The ones who do have food and income at this time are more than likely getting it off the graces of pirates who have brought food, money, and equipment in.

The pirates on the other hand have weapons, money, food, tools, etc.

How are the villagers supposed to turn the pirates out in such a case?

Even if they were to decide that it was in their own benefit to rid themselves of the pirates in their midst just how in the hell are they supposed to do so? There is no law and order. A newbie government that's yet to really get off the ground can provide them with no protection or backup in eliminating pirates. Personally I just don't see how they could do it when they have nothing and the pirates are now equipped with all manner of modern weaponry.

cherokee · Apr 13, 2009

WI Crippler said:
I don't think we should shell them, unless its to clear a landing spot for the Marines.

The skinnies would just hide behind women and kids like always.

Captain America · Apr 13, 2009

Scarecrow Akhbar said:
Well, I'm gonna let you in on what's obviously a secret that's been well kept from you:

The Kumbaya Singers International have seized the White House and are making policy now. The mature people are gone.

Well, if you ask me, the Kumbaya Singers are some pretty damn good shots.
The shots. Three kills. You gotta love a good three-part harmony.

cherokee · Apr 13, 2009

Captain America said:
Just my two cents.

You may not agree with me but at least appreciate my honesty in this matter.

Pirates revenge? Revenge my ass!

F*** those little pigmy mother*******.

I am sick and tired of our country being anchored down from progress because of some 3rd world, ignorant, nasty, archaic culture bent on stupidity.

I realize those folks are in dire straits over there but it ain't my problem. It's THEIR problem. Their culture, by design it seems, prevents them from being much more than they already are. They make their own bed so let them sleep on their piss-stenched mattresses. But, DON'T TREAD ON ME!" If they insist on making their problem our problem, let's give some REAL problems to deal with.

You can lead a horse to water but you can't make it drink. You can give them all the rice stuffed care packages and financial aid you got and they will STILL be a low-life form of parasitic sub-humanity bent on all the low-character traits known to mankind.

I would give the tribal elders in Somilia 30 days to deal with their own trash and eliminate those engaging in the piracy industry or get the f*** out of the way while we carpet bomb every square inch of that sh**-hole of a country they call Somalia.

Yessir. F*** those retards! I have no human sympathy for those cockroach people.

And to think, I'm having a rather good day. :2wave:

Catch me on a bad day and I might even be a littler harsher in my opinion. :rofl

The only man I've ever said this too was my father
but...Damn I love you....:mrgreen:

talloulou · Apr 13, 2009

cherokee said:
The skinnies would just hide behind women and kids like always.

They need to just continue what they did when rescuing the Captn. Fighting the actual pirates on the seas while in the midst of hostage taking/piracy. At the very least it will make them think twice about stealing US ships. If the international community follows suit and everyone ceases paying ransoms perhaps the ship stealing will stop.

I couldn't support just random shelling of the coastal villages. Most of those people have nothing and literally no means of protecting themselves against such actions. It would be like ripping the legs off of a baby in the hopes that daddy quits being an asshole.

Captain America · Apr 13, 2009

cherokee said:
The only man I've ever said this too was my father
but...Damn I love you....:mrgreen:

Methinks I might have been a little too brash in my commentary. Perhaps I shouldn't post here before I've had my coffee. :rofl

Sorry 'bout that Talloulou. I got the message though. I'll tone it down a bit.

mrgreen

cherokee · Apr 13, 2009

talloulou said:
They need to just continue what they did when rescuing the Captn. Fighting the actual pirates on the seas while in the midst of hostage taking/piracy. At the very least it will make them think twice about stealing US ships. If the international community follows suit and everyone ceases paying ransoms perhaps the ship stealing will stop.

I couldn't support just random shelling of the coastal villages. Most of those people have nothing and literally no means of protecting themselves against such actions. It would be like ripping the legs off of a baby in the hopes that daddy quits being an asshole.

I understand what you are saying, You have a gift to try and see the good and I really do respect that, Its one of the things I like about you buy sweety.

These people have had far too many chances to pull themselves out of the hell hole they live in. They picked something else.

talloulou · Apr 13, 2009

Captain America said:
Methinks I might have been a little too brash in my commentary. Perhaps I shouldn't post here before I've had my coffee. :rofl

Sorry 'bout that Talloulou. I got the message though. I'll tone it down a bit. mrgreen

Thanks. Talk of killing in war talk is inevitable. Killing as strategy is often necessary and is completely acceptable as war talk strategy. But references to cockroach people who no one will miss in regards to the entire Somali population starts you sounding like a KKK racist nutter.

cherokee · Apr 13, 2009

Captain America said:
Methinks I might have been a little too brash in my commentary. Perhaps I shouldn't post here before I've had my coffee. :rofl

Sorry 'bout that Talloulou. I got the message though. I'll tone it down a bit. mrgreen

Sadly sometimes its all they will listen to.

Captain America · Apr 13, 2009

talloulou said:
Thanks. Talk of killing in war talk is inevitable. Killing as strategy is often necessary and is completely acceptable as war talk strategy. But references to cockroach people who no one will miss in regards to the entire Somali population starts you sounding like a KKK racist nutter.

You should hear me when I get my rant on when I'm cybor-bitch-slapping the KKK! :rofl

But I hear what your saying. But, to remain honest, I really have as much compassion in my heart for the Somali's as I do for a cockroach or mosquito. And, I know that's wrong. But I'll work on it. Just for you.

American · Apr 13, 2009

thabigred · Apr 14, 2009

celticlord said:
What laws? What nation has jurisdiction in international waters? (answer: NONE).

There is no law involved here. Pirates are attacking other nations' commercial vessels. While they may be lacking the political orientation of terrorists, they are committing what amounts to an act of war. We should respond in kind.

In the case of the villages, the combatants (pirates) are being given shelter, aid, comfort, and resources by the villagers. The villages are therefore legitimate targets.

If the villagers don't want to be targets, let them turn the pirates out and deny them safe harbor. Their choice entirely.

Thats easy to say when the pirates have all the money and the weaponry in a lawless country.

You are seriously justifying the bombing of civilians when that can be diverted.

You are talking of shelling civilian towns because a few cargo ships got knocked up.

You sound like the British in the early part of the century in Cambodia, instead of searching the jungle to find bandits who stole from there caravans. They would just burn down sections of the forest they knew they were hiding in to flush them out.

Same logic.

We can't find the perpetrators, but we are going to wreck some **** just to vent some anger.

First Thought · Apr 14, 2009

I said "No". I'm not okay with taking the lives of innocents. Call them "casualties of war" or spin it any other way that helps you sleep at night. I'm not interested.

Infinite Chaos · Apr 14, 2009

celticlord said:
Are those "really bad" neighborhoods conspiring to aid and abet pirates?

No? Didn't think so.....NEXT!

ThaBidRed was talking about the logic, not the specifics. Application of a principle...

Onion Eater said:
-- Also unnatural to Africans is the concept of a court of law that tries individuals for crimes.

Strange that courts exist and operate in many parts of Africa... Shariah being one example and in many other parts of Africa there are courts on the western model. One of which stopped Madonna adopting another Malawian child. Or are you thinking Somalia=Africa?

Onion Eater said:
--If an individual has defied the will of his tribe, they will kill or exile him. But, if they have not, then all of his actions can be assumed to have been taken on behalf of his tribe.

Thus, if an individual African has crossed you, the appropriate and entirely natural response is to decimate his tribe. While "indiscriminate shelling" may be abhorrent to the Western mind, the fact is, that is just the way things work in Africa.

:spin: Where do you get this from? I've lived all over Africa and never came across this...

Onion Eater said:
-- killing one out of ten members of their tribe and then telling the rest, "don't f*ck with us again;" that is something they understand. That is the way things have always worked in Africa.

Examples please?

Scarecrow Akhbar said:
This isn't an international conflict, it's merely criminal activity in which the government that would normally be held responsible simply does not exist.

Well said Scarecrow. For once I agreed one of your posts. :lol:

cherokee said:
-- These people have had far too many chances to pull themselves out of the hell hole they live in. They picked something else.

They live in a failed state, the fishing grounds are either polluted or Western trawlers have overfished the local area.. their normal means of making a living have gone. Or are you not aware of what was washed up out of the sea after the tsunami in the Indian Ocean?

Laila · Apr 14, 2009

Onion Eater said:
Three cheers for the Navy SEALS who whacked these criminals! Kidnapped US captain freed; snipers kill 3 pirates

Unfortunately, these thieves have become a serious economic problem. Shippers face higher insurance as pirates run amok

Fortunately, it is a problem with a simple and cost-free solution. Just kill them.

This isn't like Pirates of the Caribbean, where they have a top-secret hideout in some hidden cove that nobody can find. They are operating from villages in plain view of the dozens of navel vessels we have sent to the area.

Jeez! Give me command of just one destroyer for a single day and I will put an abrupt end to the entire piracy problem. There are too many Somalis anyway. Nobody will miss the ones who live along the coast. The inland Somalis can make an honest living at farming - I'll even offer to pay top dollar for any agricultural products they have to sell. But the ones on the coast have to die.

In my experience, people are motivated by only two things: fear and greed. The Somalis have tasted greed. Now let us teach them fear.

So punish civilians for what pirates are doing?

The locals have little power and between the Islamists and the pirates. I know which side i'd choose and it wouldn't be the Islamists ...

Anarchy in the land, piracy in the sea. The only thing that can prevent Pirates is a strong Government, not bombs.

Seeing alot of hijackings are occuring near Somaliland/Puntland but the bases are in Somalia; not many could distinguish the key differences and knowing them. It would probably just carpet bomb us so thanks but no thanks.

Laila · Apr 14, 2009

Captain America said:
Just my two cents.

You may not agree with me but at least appreciate my honesty in this matter.

Pirates revenge? Revenge my ass!

F*** those little pigmy mother*******.

I am sick and tired of our country being anchored down from progress because of some 3rd world, ignorant, nasty, archaic culture bent on stupidity.

I realize those folks are in dire straits over there but it ain't my problem. It's THEIR problem. Their culture, by design it seems, prevents them from being much more than they already are. They make their own bed so let them sleep on their piss-stenched mattresses. But, DON'T TREAD ON ME!" If they insist on making their problem our problem, let's give some REAL problems to deal with.

You can lead a horse to water but you can't make it drink. You can give them all the rice stuffed care packages and financial aid you got and they will STILL be a low-life form of parasitic sub-humanity bent on all the low-character traits known to mankind.

I would give the tribal elders in Somilia 30 days to deal with their own trash and eliminate those engaging in the piracy industry or get the f*** out of the way while we carpet bomb every square inch of that sh**-hole of a country they call Somalia.

Yessir. F*** those retards! I have no human sympathy for those cockroach people.

And to think, I'm having a rather good day. :2wave:

Catch me on a bad day and I might even be a littler harsher in my opinion. :rofl

As amusing as that tirade was, it has not solved piracy.

US and the West cannot even handle Afghanistan, stay away from Somalia because US will be just as pathetic in dealing with it - And we wouldn't want a repeat of what occured last time .... would we?

Captain America · Apr 14, 2009

Judging by the depth of your coherency and the apologetic, yet supportive positions for Somalian piracy, I am actually beginning to think you are actually from Somalia even though you have a computer and have "London baby" listed as your location.

You seem like a nice enough person though. I hope your Somalian acquaintences survives the ass kickings the pirates are subjecting them to receive as they insist on stealing, hi-jacking, taking hostages and pirating on the high seas.

Maybe when and if you and your people get tired of it, you will pull your support and sympathy from them and put a stop to it yourselves before we have to come over there and do it for you. It's not too late.

Laila · Apr 14, 2009

Captain America said:
Judging by the depth of your coherency and the apologetic, yet supportive positions for Somalian piracy, I am actually beginning to think you are actually from Somalia even though you have a computer and have "London baby" listed as your location.

You seem like a nice enough person though. I hope your Somalian acquaintences survives the ass kickings the pirates are subjecting them to receive as they insist on stealing, hi-jacking, taking hostages and pirating on the high seas.

Maybe when and if you and your people get tired of it, you will pull your support and sympathy from them and put a stop to it yourselves before we have to come over there and do it for you. It's not too late.

If we are thinking in factual terms, i am from 'Somalia'. Somaliland is a seperatist movement and has not been recognised and still seen as part of 'Somalia.'

I have little relatives in the South, all of my family members are in the North so don't worry

Somaliland has it's own fight with pirates. The South wants Somaliland to collapse and think the best way to make it fall is to bring western attention to it, hence why they are attempting to build a pirates base in Somaliland.

allAfrica.com: Somalia: Somaliland Forces Fight Civilians, Pirates in Sanaag (Page 1 of 1)

Somaliland: The World Arms Pirates While It Disarms Somaliland Navy

Somaliland has it's own Navy which do deal with Pirates and has decreased it dramatically before but because US and UN has a weapons ban on "Somalia" - Somaliland because it is unrecognised as seperate from Somalia cannot get access to the needed equipment to prevent them anymore. The money they got from the hijackings has enabled them to have the ability to be very strong.

Somaliland offers port to fight pirates - Washington Times

A breakaway region of Somalia with a name that is bound to confuse outsiders - Somaliland - plans to offer its harbor on the Gulf of Aden as a base for U.S., British and Indian warships to battle pirates.

It's up to US and UK on whether they wish to use the port but never say we have not tried to prevent piracy, the fact that Somalia gets hundreds of milions in aid does not help very much either.

thabigred · Apr 14, 2009

Captain America said:
Judging by the depth of your coherency and the apologetic, yet supportive positions for Somalian piracy, I am actually beginning to think you are actually from Somalia even though you have a computer and have "London baby" listed as your location.

You seem like a nice enough person though. I hope your Somalian acquaintences survives the ass kickings the pirates are subjecting them to receive as they insist on stealing, hi-jacking, taking hostages and pirating on the high seas.

Maybe when and if you and your people get tired of it, you will pull your support and sympathy from them and put a stop to it yourselves before we have to come over there and do it for you. It's not too late.

Captain lets say you lived somewhere on the west coast in a really small poorish community.

Some guys have been just recently going out to sea and conducting piracy on vessels entering the panama canal.

Would you be ok with China carpet bombing your entire area, just because you are suspected to harboring the pirates?

Should the U.S. Navy shell Somali villages that harbor pirates?

Should the U.S. Navy shell Somali villages that harbor pirates?

Yes.

No.

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