View Poll Results: Should the U.S. Navy shell Somali villages that harbor pirates?

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Thread: Should the U.S. Navy shell Somali villages that harbor pirates?

  1. #51
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    Re: Should the U.S. Navy shell Somali villages that harbor pirates?

    Quote Originally Posted by donsutherland1 View Post
    Onion Eater,

    I believe some form of military action might be helpful, but such action would need to comply with the Laws of War e.g., compliance would rule out indiscriminate bombardment. Attacks that target pirates, pirate facilities/boats and/or weapons would be legitimate.

    Several possible steps might include:

    1. Scheduling the passage of shipping so as to allow for naval escorts.
    2. Capturing strategic points on the Somali coastline e.g., major ports used by the pirates. Merely raiding or clearing the villages probably won't provide a sustainable solution.
    3. Creating a temporary secured zone comprised of those captured areas, with the African Union taking charge of security arrangements.
    4. If or when--probably if, in the near-term--Somalia has a government capable of exercising jurisdiction in the captured areas, those areas could revert to Somalia. That understanding should be explicit, as Somalia is presently a failed state, but it should not be assumed that Somalia will remain a failed state over the longer-term. There needs to be flexibility to allow Somalia to regain control over its territory once it overcomes its failed state status.
    5. Some form of international assistance for the Somali coastal communities so that the economic environment would become less attractive to piracy.

    A UN Security Council resolution would be quite helpful in pursuing some of the above steps e.g., setting up a temporary protected zone. An understanding that is reached with the nominal Somali government and any leading Somali tribal elders could also be beneficial.

    There is a possibility that agreements forged with Somali tribal elders might reduce the need for military action by reducing piracy. If that avenue is productive, then military operations might not be necessary or they could be more limited than described above.
    In addition to this fact, I recommend sinking Somali pirate boats on sight.

    If nothing else, it will make piracy more expensive, more risky, and less profitable.

  2. #52
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    Re: Should the U.S. Navy shell Somali villages that harbor pirates?

    From an op-ed written by Peter Zimmerman, professor emeritus at King's College London:

    Thirty thousand ships a year, roughly 100 a day, 50 in each direction, transit the waters off the coast of Somalia. One convoy in each direction, each day, alternating between fast ships and slower ones, and each accompanied by four or five escort vessels, would do the job. There would then be only two targets a day in each area of coast for the pirates to find, instead of 100. When marauders approach a convoy, they could be warned off by the escorts or destroyed if they attack.

    Convoys have historically been the antidote to piracy on the open seas, and they can defend against these attacks once again. Modern naval escorts, equipped with helicopters, have the ability to establish a perimeter around the merchant ships, the firepower to stop a pirate, the legal jurisdiction to do so under the Convention on the Law of the Sea, and the ability to deliver their prisoners for trial.
    Peter Zimmerman Says Convoys Are an Answer to Piracy - WSJ.com

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    Re: Should the U.S. Navy shell Somali villages that harbor pirates?

    Quote Originally Posted by thabigred View Post
    Captain lets say you lived somewhere on the west coast in a really small poorish community.

    Some guys have been just recently going out to sea and conducting piracy on vessels entering the panama canal.

    Would you be ok with China carpet bombing your entire area, just because you are suspected to harboring the pirates?
    I understand your question and the concern is valid. It is not in my heart to just lay waste to innocents.

    Desperate times require desperate measures. On both sides. I understand that too.

    But there comes a point in time when you either become a part of the problem or part of the solution. If an individual prefers to stay neutral and lend their harmless sympathy one way or the other, fine. But get out of the line of fire.

    But if, let's say, some people moved in next door to me that would inevitably bring harm to me or my family, and I had no authority to turn to, to remedy the situation, I would take it upon myself to either eradicate them myself, or remove my family out of harm's way if the risk of removing the threat outweighed the risk of harming my family.

    I would NOT turn a blind eye. I would NOT sell them mango's or serve them lunch. I would NOT support them in any way.

    But, you never know what you'd do until you are standing in that man's sandals. It's easy for me to type what Ď would do." Doing it is another talk show altogether.

    So. What am I left with? A heavy heart for the innocents that can't escape their own reality and an instinctive drive for self-preservation. If I must decide, the latter wins.

    Walk softly. Carry a big-ass stick. Play Whack-a-Somali. Happy hunting. Ooooh-rah.
    Last edited by Captain America; 04-14-09 at 12:56 PM.

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    Re: Should the U.S. Navy shell Somali villages that harbor pirates?

    Quote Originally Posted by Captain America View Post
    So. What am I left with? A heavy heart for the innocents that can't escape their own reality and an instinctive drive for self-preservation. If I must decide, the latter wins.

    Walk softly. Carry a big-ass stick. Play Whack-a-Somali. Happy hunting. Ooooh-rah.
    Self preservation? Are the Somalis causing you harm?
    "An error does not become truth by reason of multiplied propagation, nor does truth become error because nobody sees it." - Gandhi

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    Re: Should the U.S. Navy shell Somali villages that harbor pirates?

    Quote Originally Posted by Captain America View Post
    But there comes a point in time when you either become a part of the problem or part of the solution. If an individual prefers to stay neutral and lend their harmless sympathy one way or the other, fine. But get out of the line of fire.
    Exactly. If the Somalis would unite today, round up all the pirates, and throw them in the nearest hellhole prison for the next two centuries, I would say we should waste no time in extending a hand of thanks to the Somalis.

    If there are Somalis that have legitimate business to transact with other nations, we should do legitimate business with honest and legitimate businessmen.

    However, when Somalis seek to excuse the piracy, and endeavor to assist their avoidance of punishment, such as the clan elders who attempted to negotiate with FBI hostage negotiators a deal to let the pirates escape all justice, they are most definitely part of the problem:

    Negotiations over the American captain taken hostage by Somali pirates broke down on Saturday, according to Somali officials, after American officials insisted that the pirates be arrested and a group of elders representing the pirates refused.
    On Saturday, a group of Somali elders from Gara’ad, mediating on behalf of the pirates, spoke by satellite phone to American officials, according to Abdul Aziz Aw Mahamoud, a district commissioner in the semiautonomous region of Puntland in northeastern Somalia. The elders proposed a deal in which the pirates would release Captain Phillips, with no ransom paid, and that the pirates would then be allowed to escape.
    So long as Somalis pretend piracy is "no big deal" and fail to oppose it categorically, they will earn damnation equal to that of the pirates, and deservedly so.

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    Re: Should the U.S. Navy shell Somali villages that harbor pirates?

    Quote Originally Posted by Onion Eater View Post
    Three cheers for the Navy SEALS who whacked these criminals! Kidnapped US captain freed; snipers kill 3 pirates

    Unfortunately, these thieves have become a serious economic problem. Shippers face higher insurance as pirates run amok

    Fortunately, it is a problem with a simple and cost-free solution. Just kill them.

    This isn't like Pirates of the Caribbean, where they have a top-secret hideout in some hidden cove that nobody can find. They are operating from villages in plain view of the dozens of navel vessels we have sent to the area.

    Jeez! Give me command of just one destroyer for a single day and I will put an abrupt end to the entire piracy problem. There are too many Somalis anyway. Nobody will miss the ones who live along the coast. The inland Somalis can make an honest living at farming - I'll even offer to pay top dollar for any agricultural products they have to sell. But the ones on the coast have to die.

    In my experience, people are motivated by only two things: fear and greed. The Somalis have tasted greed. Now let us teach them fear.
    In theory, sure, but in practice I think our military is stretched enough.

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    Re: Should the U.S. Navy shell Somali villages that harbor pirates?

    Unfortunately, it's really not going to do any good, the villagers depend on the pirates for their survival, but they don't facilitate the piracy. You have to remember in Somalia, the average person makes $1000 a year, but a pirate can make $10,000 per raid. The pirates are the super-rich among the Somali people, they're the people everyone wants to be.

    The only way to stop it is to get an actual government in Somalia, which hasn't had one since 1991, and to put every single pirate caught on the high seas to death, no exceptions.

    When they realize they're not only not going to get any ransom, but they're going to be killed and dumped into the surf, they'll stop... one way or the other.
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    Re: Should the U.S. Navy shell Somali villages that harbor pirates?

    What ethical policy is behind this?

    "To bomb/shell any group that harbors violent criminals?"

    We'd have to bomb every country/group on the planet, and send a missile into the space station for good measure...don't think we don't know your'e up there space-station-people! I'm sure Richard Garriot has been a facist in ultima online once or twice.

    Retalitory violence only works against certain cultures and people, under certain circumstances. Very often it has no real impact, or actually worsens the situation. If you propose that these dirt poor somali villages would "clean up their act" as a result of it, you're kidding yourself.

    -Mach

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    Re: Should the U.S. Navy shell Somali villages that harbor pirates?

    Quote Originally Posted by Captain America View Post
    I understand your question and the concern is valid. It is not in my heart to just lay waste to innocents.

    Desperate times require desperate measures. On both sides. I understand that too.

    But there comes a point in time when you either become a part of the problem or part of the solution. If an individual prefers to stay neutral and lend their harmless sympathy one way or the other, fine. But get out of the line of fire.

    But if, let's say, some people moved in next door to me that would inevitably bring harm to me or my family, and I had no authority to turn to, to remedy the situation, I would take it upon myself to either eradicate them myself, or remove my family out of harm's way if the risk of removing the threat outweighed the risk of harming my family.

    I would NOT turn a blind eye. I would NOT sell them mango's or serve them lunch. I would NOT support them in any way.

    But, you never know what you'd do until you are standing in that man's sandals. It's easy for me to type what Ď would do." Doing it is another talk show altogether.

    So. What am I left with? A heavy heart for the innocents that can't escape their own reality and an instinctive drive for self-preservation. If I must decide, the latter wins.

    Walk softly. Carry a big-ass stick. Play Whack-a-Somali. Happy hunting. Ooooh-rah.
    You are acting as if it is this or nothing, the us military have plenty of options on the table left in taking care of this. Bombing civilians is not a way to solve this, you would only piss off more in the Islamic world.

    In by doing so, America stops being someone who solves the problem in that area, but a large reason why they continue to do what they do.

    Bombing civilians is not an option on the table, at all, keep living that dream buddy. America and the western world has grown up from being childish like this, and lashing out at at an entire country, when really it is a select few of individuals.
    The purpose of morality is to teach you, not to suffer and die, but to enjoy yourself and live. ~ Ayn Rand
    A politician divides mankind into two classes: tools and enemies.~ Nietzsche

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    Re: Should the U.S. Navy shell Somali villages that harbor pirates?

    Add them to the list of "Axis of Evil"!!!!

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