View Poll Results: Should the U.S. Navy shell Somali villages that harbor pirates?

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Thread: Should the U.S. Navy shell Somali villages that harbor pirates?

  1. #21
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    Re: Should the U.S. Navy shell Somali villages that harbor pirates?

    Quote Originally Posted by thabigred View Post
    Laws are enforced on a case by case bases, you just don't go nuking and bombing shanti towns because there are a section of crimanls in them.
    What laws? What nation has jurisdiction in international waters? (answer: NONE).

    There is no law involved here. Pirates are attacking other nations' commercial vessels. While they may be lacking the political orientation of terrorists, they are committing what amounts to an act of war. We should respond in kind.

    In the case of the villages, the combatants (pirates) are being given shelter, aid, comfort, and resources by the villagers. The villages are therefore legitimate targets.

    If the villagers don't want to be targets, let them turn the pirates out and deny them safe harbor. Their choice entirely.

  2. #22
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    Re: Should the U.S. Navy shell Somali villages that harbor pirates?

    Quote Originally Posted by Onion Eater View Post

    In my experience, people are motivated by only two things: fear and greed. The Somalis have tasted greed. Now let us teach them fear.
    Shell the **** out of them when they find out where the pirates reside. But don't go the Israeli bitch route of notifying residents where and when they are going to shell it. Those people know who the pirates are and should have some common sense to know that eventually a pissed off nation is going to retaliate, therefore logic would dictate to stay the **** away from those people.
    "A nation can survive its fools, and even the ambitious. But it cannot survive treason from within. An enemy at the gates is less formidable, for he is known and carries his banner openly. But the traitor moves amongst those within the gate freely, his sly whispers rustling through all the alleys, heard in the very halls of government itself. For the traitor appears not a traitor; he speaks in accents familiar to his victims, and he wears their face and their arguments, he appeals to the baseness that lies deep in the hearts of all men. He rots the soul of a nation, he works secretly and unknown in the night to undermine the pillars of the city, he infects the body politic so that it can no longer resist. A murder is less to fear"

    Cicero Marcus Tullius

  3. #23
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    Re: Should the U.S. Navy shell Somali villages that harbor pirates?

    Quote Originally Posted by Onion Eater View Post
    The Laws of War only apply to state-to-state conflicts and there is no state in Somalia.
    Onion Eater,

    For signatories of the Geneva Convention relative to the Protection of Civilian Persons in Time of War, civilian protections apply in all conflicts as per Article 3. Prisoner of war status, not the protected status of civilians, is a different matter where certain combatants have greater protections under the Geneva Conventions than others.

    We are already doing this, but it is a costly and incomplete solution. It is a big area and there is far to much commercial shipping to organize everybody into convoys.
    In the short-term shipping plans will need to be shifted. That will entail higher costs, but until the piracy issue is brought under control, both offensive (military) and defensive (avoidance of pirate-infested shipping lanes to the greatest extent possible) will need to be pursued. Rising insurance rates for commercial shippers who transit through the pirate-infested waters may begin to shift shipping practices.

    3) Capturing territory is a really bad idea unless you have some plan for managing that territory. If we learned nothing else from the debacle in Iraq, we should have learned that, at least.

    Anyway, there are no "strategic points" because the pirate ships do not need deep-water ports. They can be based almost anywhere along the Somali coast.
    The pirates cannot use smaller or shallower ports unless they shift their conduct to merely taking hostages and leaving the ships and their cargoes adrift. But doing so would reduce their ability to extract ransoms. Not surprisingly, even as the pirates operate over a large area, they have a few strongholds in which they are especially concentrated e.g., Haradheere, among others.

    Before any military action is taken, it would need to be well-planned (overwhelming force available, major contingencies considered, a well-defined exit strategy, etc.). Creating a mechanism in which the nominal Somali government and/or leading Somali tribal elders endorsed efforts and the African Union provided security once the key areas were cleared of pirates would be important. Creation of that mechanism might yield an opportunity to avoid the need for capturing territory. Hopefully, that scenario can still be avoided.

    This is the fundamental flaw in your reasoning, Don. As a Westerner, you assume that a national government, a "state," is the natural form of government for all people everywhere and that the lack thereof is somehow unnatural.

    Your use of the term "failed state" implies that a state is the ideal and that any other type of government is a failure to live up to what everybody acknowledges is the ideal. But not everybody acknowledges or even understands this ideal, Don.
    A failed state would also include a situation in which no group of persons, be they a government, set of tribal elders, leaders of the coastal villages, etc., lacks the ability to exercise jurisdiction over a given territory. I'm less interested over who holds control than whether there is control.

    The major point is that there is no entity or person(s) from the territory comprised within Somalia's boundaries that has the ability to curb piracy. That means that the international community will need to take such steps as are necessary to compensate for that reality. One such avenue might involve capturing territory from the pirates and bringing in African Union troops for purposes of maintaining security there.

    Also unnatural to Africans is the concept of a court of law that tries individuals for crimes. If an individual has defied the will of his tribe, they will kill or exile him. But, if they have not, then all of his actions can be assumed to have been taken on behalf of his tribe.

    Thus, if an individual African has crossed you, the appropriate and entirely natural response is to decimate his tribe. While "indiscriminate shelling" may be abhorrent to the Western mind, the fact is, that is just the way things work in Africa.
    Considering that the pirates are attacking the commercial interests of a growing number of outside states in international waters, such states have a right under international law to protect their interests. They can very likely use international maritime laws and other instruments of international law to create a mechanism for prosecuting captured pirates.

    Separately, virtually all outside states are signatories to the Geneva Conventions. As a consequence, they are obligated to refrain from indiscriminate bombardment, among other certain practices. Efforts to decimate a tribe would also be problematic against various instruments of international humanitarian law and would constitute either crimes against humanity or war crimes or both.

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    Re: Should the U.S. Navy shell Somali villages that harbor pirates?

    Quote Originally Posted by Khayembii Communique View Post
    Why is this in the economics forum?
    Moderator's Warning:
    Should the U.S. Navy shell Somali villages that harbor pirates?Good Question. Moved to poll forum
    "Loyalty only matters when there's a hundred reasons not to be-" Gen. Mattis

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    Re: Should the U.S. Navy shell Somali villages that harbor pirates?

    I don't think we should shell them, unless its to clear a landing spot for the Marines.
    "Loyalty only matters when there's a hundred reasons not to be-" Gen. Mattis

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    Re: Should the U.S. Navy shell Somali villages that harbor pirates?

    Shelling is a rather crude and indiscriminate practice. UAV strikes are much more effiecient

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    Re: Should the U.S. Navy shell Somali villages that harbor pirates?

    Seems to me that it's a bit drastic.

    Pirates don't swim out to take their prey, no. They use boats.

    Establish an internationally defined coastal zone for Somali fishermen, and authorize cargo transports to shoot any small coastal vessels outside that zone that refuse to stay outside a 1 km radius from that ship.

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    Re: Should the U.S. Navy shell Somali villages that harbor pirates?

    Quote Originally Posted by Captain America View Post
    They say a young man that is not liberal has no heart.

    They say that a mature man that is not conservative has no brain.

    While I do admire your Lennon approach of "Love, love, love" (and I really do) I am grateful that the mature men makes the decisions on national security.

    Keep the faith brother.
    Well, I'm gonna let you in on what's obviously a secret that's been well kept from you:

    The Kumbaya Singers International have seized the White House and are making policy now. The mature people are gone.

  9. #29
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    Re: Should the U.S. Navy shell Somali villages that harbor pirates?

    Quote Originally Posted by donsutherland1 View Post
    Onion Eater,

    For signatories of the Geneva Convention relative to the Protection of Civilian Persons in Time of War, civilian protections apply in all conflicts as per Article 3. Prisoner of war status, not the protected status of civilians, is a different matter where certain combatants have greater protections under the Geneva Conventions than others.
    This isn't an international conflict, it's merely criminal activity in which the government that would normally be held responsible simply does not exist.

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    Re: Should the U.S. Navy shell Somali villages that harbor pirates?

    Quote Originally Posted by Onion Eater View Post
    There are too many Somalis anyway. Nobody will miss the ones who live along the coast.
    This borders on hate speech. War talk often does but this -in my mind - goes a tad over the line.

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