View Poll Results: Should the U.S. Navy shell Somali villages that harbor pirates?

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  • Yes.

    24 42.86%
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Thread: Should the U.S. Navy shell Somali villages that harbor pirates?

  1. #11
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    Re: Should the U.S. Navy shell Somali villages that harbor pirates?

    Quote Originally Posted by UtahBill View Post
    I feel the same about our GOP leadership....
    I wasn't aware the GOP had any leadership. Care to enlighten me?

    It's one thing to want your country to all wear crew cut hair cuts and black horn-rimmed glasses, long skirts, kneel before Jeeezuz, and keep he country stuck in the 50's, living the way you think everyone else should live. We have a way of dealing with those kind of folks in our midst. We vote them out. The are not that significant anymore.

    It's quite another issue when a culture demands their populus remain stuck centuries behind the rest of the world due to their religion or cultural traditions, and said culture has no means of escaping their own, self-placed shackles.

    They, like us, have the power to progess in their own hands. If there is a firewall hardwired in their culture that doesn't allow them to become peaceful productive members of humanity, and they make no effort to remove their own virus, I got no use for them.
    Last edited by Captain America; 04-13-09 at 11:15 AM.

    It's GREAT to be me. --- "45% liberal/55% conservative"
    Diplomacy is the art of saying 'nice doggy" until you can find a gun.

  2. #12
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    Re: Should the U.S. Navy shell Somali villages that harbor pirates?

    Quote Originally Posted by UtahBill View Post
    I feel the same about our GOP leadership....


    Lol. gotta love those "moderate" commentary.....


    Matthew 10:34
    Think not that I am come to send peace on earth: I came not to send peace, but a sword.

  3. #13
    Student thabigred's Avatar
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    Re: Should the U.S. Navy shell Somali villages that harbor pirates?

    Maybe we should just go into the really bad neighborhoods of the US and unload a few thousand machine gun rounds every where.

    Same logic i'm getting from this thread.

    My mind is blown by the ignorance.
    The purpose of morality is to teach you, not to suffer and die, but to enjoy yourself and live. ~ Ayn Rand
    A politician divides mankind into two classes: tools and enemies.~ Nietzsche

  4. #14
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    Re: Should the U.S. Navy shell Somali villages that harbor pirates?

    Quote Originally Posted by thabigred View Post
    Maybe we should just go into the really bad neighborhoods of the US and unload a few thousand machine gun rounds every where.

    Same logic i'm getting from this thread.

    My mind is blown by the ignorance.
    That thought has crossed my mind too. We got human cockroaches right here in our own cities.

    I'm sorry your mind is blown with ignorance. I think it was the LSD that blew mine. I suppose it's good to know that we all get blown, one way or another.

    It's GREAT to be me. --- "45% liberal/55% conservative"
    Diplomacy is the art of saying 'nice doggy" until you can find a gun.

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    Re: Should the U.S. Navy shell Somali villages that harbor pirates?

    Quote Originally Posted by thabigred View Post
    Maybe we should just go into the really bad neighborhoods of the US and unload a few thousand machine gun rounds every where.

    Same logic i'm getting from this thread.

    My mind is blown by the ignorance.
    Are those "really bad" neighborhoods conspiring to aid and abet pirates?

    No? Didn't think so.....NEXT!

  6. #16
    Student thabigred's Avatar
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    Re: Should the U.S. Navy shell Somali villages that harbor pirates?

    Quote Originally Posted by celticlord View Post
    Are those "really bad" neighborhoods conspiring to aid and abet pirates?

    No? Didn't think so.....NEXT!


    Laws are enforced on a case by case bases, you just don't go nuking and bombing shanti towns because there are a section of crimanls in them.
    The purpose of morality is to teach you, not to suffer and die, but to enjoy yourself and live. ~ Ayn Rand
    A politician divides mankind into two classes: tools and enemies.~ Nietzsche

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    Re: Should the U.S. Navy shell Somali villages that harbor pirates?

    They say a young man that is not liberal has no heart.

    They say that a mature man that is not conservative has no brain.

    While I do admire your Lennon approach of "Love, love, love" (and I really do) I am grateful that the mature men makes the decisions on national security.

    Keep the faith brother.

    It's GREAT to be me. --- "45% liberal/55% conservative"
    Diplomacy is the art of saying 'nice doggy" until you can find a gun.

  8. #18
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    Re: Should the U.S. Navy shell Somali villages that harbor pirates?

    Why is this in the economics forum?

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    Student thabigred's Avatar
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    Re: Should the U.S. Navy shell Somali villages that harbor pirates?

    Quote Originally Posted by Captain America View Post
    They say a young man that is not liberal has no heart.

    They say that a mature man that is not conservative has no brain.

    While I do admire your Lennon approach of "Love, love, love" (and I really do) I am grateful that the mature men makes the decisions on national security.

    Keep the faith brother.
    When wisdom is used at the absence of common sense, you lose both.
    The purpose of morality is to teach you, not to suffer and die, but to enjoy yourself and live. ~ Ayn Rand
    A politician divides mankind into two classes: tools and enemies.~ Nietzsche

  10. #20
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    Re: Should the U.S. Navy shell Somali villages that harbor pirates?

    Quote Originally Posted by donsutherland1 View Post
    Onion Eater,

    I believe some form of military action might be helpful, but such action would need to comply with the Laws of War e.g., compliance would rule out indiscriminate bombardment. Attacks that target pirates, pirate facilities/boats and/or weapons would be legitimate.

    Several possible steps might include:

    1. Scheduling the passage of shipping so as to allow for naval escorts.
    2. Capturing strategic points on the Somali coastline e.g., major ports used by the pirates. Merely raiding or clearing the villages probably won't provide a sustainable solution.
    3. Creating a temporary secured zone comprised of those captured areas, with the African Union taking charge of security arrangements.
    4. If or when--probably if, in the near-term--Somalia has a government capable of exercising jurisdiction in the captured areas, those areas could revert to Somalia. That understanding should be explicit, as Somalia is presently a failed state, but it should not be assumed that Somalia will remain a failed state over the longer-term. There needs to be flexibility to allow Somalia to regain control over its territory once it overcomes its failed state status.
    5. Some form of international assistance for the Somali coastal communities so that the economic environment would become less attractive to piracy.

    A UN Security Council resolution would be quite helpful in pursuing some of the above steps e.g., setting up a temporary protected zone. An understanding that is reached with the nominal Somali government and any leading Somali tribal elders could also be beneficial.

    There is a possibility that agreements forged with Somali tribal elders might reduce the need for military action by reducing piracy. If that avenue is productive, then military operations might not be necessary or they could be more limited than described above.
    Don-

    The Laws of War only apply to state-to-state conflicts and there is no state in Somalia.

    1) We are already doing this, but it is a costly and incomplete solution. It is a big area and there is far to much commercial shipping to organize everybody into convoys.

    2, 3) Capturing territory is a really bad idea unless you have some plan for managing that territory. If we learned nothing else from the debacle in Iraq, we should have learned that, at least.

    Anyway, there are no "strategic points" because the pirate ships do not need deep-water ports. They can be based almost anywhere along the Somali coast.

    4) "It should not be assumed that Somalia will remain a failed state over the longer-term."

    This is the fundamental flaw in your reasoning, Don. As a Westerner, you assume that a national government, a "state," is the natural form of government for all people everywhere and that the lack thereof is somehow unnatural.

    Your use of the term "failed state" implies that a state is the ideal and that any other type of government is a failure to live up to what everybody acknowledges is the ideal. But not everybody acknowledges or even understands this ideal, Don.

    People, in their present form, have been around for a hundred thousand years and the concept of national governments has only existed in a few places for the last thousand years or so. For the great majority of people in the world, the concept of "state" is completely foreign to them.

    Westerners see pictures of Africans cutting each other up with machetes and they think, "Tsk, tsk. The lines are drawn badly on the map of Africa. If we just re-draw the map correctly, everybody will be happy in their own state."

    But the problem that the Africans face is not that the map of their continent is drawn badly, but that there is a map with any lines on it. National governments are just not natural to the Africans - tribal governments are. And tribes do not now and never have controlled well-defined territories. A village is held by a tribe but, between the villages, they only have influence, not territory.

    Also unnatural to Africans is the concept of a court of law that tries individuals for crimes. If an individual has defied the will of his tribe, they will kill or exile him. But, if they have not, then all of his actions can be assumed to have been taken on behalf of his tribe.

    Thus, if an individual African has crossed you, the appropriate and entirely natural response is to decimate his tribe. While "indiscriminate shelling" may be abhorrent to the Western mind, the fact is, that is just the way things work in Africa.

    Trying to bring an individual to trial is completely foreign and incomprehensible to Africans. They just don't get it. But killing one out of ten members of their tribe and then telling the rest, "don't f*ck with us again;" that is something they understand. That is the way things have always worked in Africa.
    Is the following quote reckless in the extreme? Then read my 2008 paper about monetary theory:
    http://www.axiomaticeconomics.com/in...e_collapse.php
    Quote Originally Posted by JP Hochbaum View Post
    No tax raises needed, just have the federal government spend the money into existence.

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