View Poll Results: Should the U.S. Navy shell Somali villages that harbor pirates?

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Thread: Should the U.S. Navy shell Somali villages that harbor pirates?

  1. #101
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    Re: Should the U.S. Navy shell Somali villages that harbor pirates?

    It seems to be common knowledge, given that thabigred and EgoffTib are quite consumed with justifying it.
    That isn't anywhere close to enough proof to kill someone. Post some solid evidence.

  2. #102
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    Re: Should the U.S. Navy shell Somali villages that harbor pirates?

    Quote Originally Posted by celticlord View Post
    Sounds like these "innocent" villagers are happy to live off pirate booty. So much for innocence.
    People should be dealt with on a case by case bases, not a "kill them all" mentality.

    You do understand open aggression like what you are speaking of is not how we do business or will do business, we do not openly bomb civilians even how much you feel they are conspirators.

    It's called code of ethics, you don't break your own ethics to enforce people who do not have ethics.

    If that were the case, there would be no reason to follow any laws, the US might as well wage war with our economic competitors to stay on top. If bombing civilians is fine to you, than I see no problem with you endorsing the idea of waging war with Europe.

    Laws are thoughts, Laws are ideas, Laws are myths, but there references are something that transcends all thinking. When America forgets to follow the own laws it has put into place, we stop being a nation of laws but a nation of men. Liberty will always fall in a nation of men, who will always value safety and security over freedom.

    Peace and security at a cost to many lives, is that really what you wish?
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  3. #103
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    Re: Should the U.S. Navy shell Somali villages that harbor pirates?

    I've been reading the posts and thinking on this. The conclusions I've come to may seem atypical for me; I have some points that might seem contradictory at first glance:

    1. Piracy is wrong, period, and it needs to be stopped.. It is theft by threat of deadly force. Attempts to justify it are excuses for immoral behavior. It is not merely retaliation for unlawful fishing, since there is no indication that Somali pirates confine their piracy to ships of nations that are guilty of illegal fishing/dumping/etc. Greed appears to be the chief motivating factor.
    --1a: those attempting to commit theft by threat of deadly force are morally subject to being killed in the act, imprisoned if caught after the fact, or killed after-the-fact if catching them is unworkable. The reasoning is that theft by threat of deadly force not infrequently ends in death for innocent victims. If I am not mistaken the Somali pirates do occasionally kill someone.


    2. Desperation, starvation and extreme poverty DO tend to lower almost anyone's moral standards a bit. There was a time in my younger days when I felt the bite of desperation and didn't have the money to buy food. I hunted anything edible, rabbits, squirrels, whatever. I swallowed my pride and went door to door asking if people had any work that needed doing they'd pay a little something for, so I could buy my wife her meds and maybe get a loaf of bread and some vegetables to go with whatever I shot that day (if anything). I didn't resort to immoral behavior like theft but I felt the temptation... and most Somali's live in poverty and desperation far and away worse than what I experienced. Furthermore I assumed I would find work eventually and my desperation would end (it did, of course)...for the average Somali there is no end to their desperate poverty but death.
    --- Similarly, I know honest people who live in the 'hood, next door to a known drug dealer. They don't like it, they don't like the types that come and go next door...but they have no means to move and they're too scared of retaliation against their self/family/children to turn informant in hopes the cops will intervene.
    This gives me a certain sympathy with the plight of the coastal villagers. Poorly armed (if at all) compared to the pirates, they surely fear to cross them, and if trading with the pirates means the difference between their kids starving or not, I can see that. A parent whose child is starving has a hard time seeing any higher moral good than feeding their child whatever it takes.

    Now there's the question of whether shelling coastal villages known to harbor pirates would actually result in a decrease in piracy. The answer to that is "I am not sure." It might.... or the pirates might take to hiding their boats in more secluded places away from villages, who knows.

    If we bomb those villages, there is no question we will inflict "collateral damage" on people who are effectively innocent of any real crime... other than being too powerless to do anything about the pirates among them, and possibly too desperate to feed their kids to refuse to trade with them. If I had more confidence that bombing those villages would actually end Somali piracy, I might think it was worth considering... but as it is, I don't think that large-scale death of fishermen, women and children can be justified when the outcome is uncertain, and the "complicity" of the villagers debateable. Notice I didn't say the villagers were innocent, just that their degree of willing complicity was questionable. The very very poor often find their options and ability to affect their community to be highly limited.

    In conclusion, I think we should take every reasonable measure to stop piracy at sea, including a multi-pronged approach of arming merchants, hiding SEAL/etc teams on some ships, using warships to patrol and convoy methods, Q-ships, and blowing pirates out of the water when we identify them.

    However, under the current circumstances and given what info I have available at this time, I just can't justify shelling those coastal villages.


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  4. #104
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    Re: Should the U.S. Navy shell Somali villages that harbor pirates?

    Quote Originally Posted by celticlord View Post
    It seems to be common knowledge, given that thabigred and EgoffTib are quite consumed with justifying it.
    Common knowledge that all of the Somalis are feeding off of the pirates? Since when?
    "An error does not become truth by reason of multiplied propagation, nor does truth become error because nobody sees it." - Gandhi

  5. #105
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    Re: Should the U.S. Navy shell Somali villages that harbor pirates?

    Quote Originally Posted by EgoffTib View Post
    Common knowledge that all of the Somalis are feeding off of the pirates? Since when?
    Should re-read your own posts. That has been the thrust of your entire "but they're poor" argument.

    If they aren't, why are you justifying that they do?

  6. #106
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    Re: Should the U.S. Navy shell Somali villages that harbor pirates?

    Quote Originally Posted by celticlord View Post
    Should re-read your own posts. That has been the thrust of your entire "but they're poor" argument.

    If they aren't, why are you justifying that they do?
    Really? I just re-read my posts. I cannot find any post where I have claimed that all Somalis are poor. Care to enlighten me?
    "An error does not become truth by reason of multiplied propagation, nor does truth become error because nobody sees it." - Gandhi

  7. #107
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    Re: Should the U.S. Navy shell Somali villages that harbor pirates?

    Quote Originally Posted by Laila View Post
    So punish civilians for what pirates are doing?

    The locals have little power and between the Islamists and the pirates. I know which side i'd choose and it wouldn't be the Islamists ...

    Anarchy in the land, piracy in the sea. The only thing that can prevent Pirates is a strong Government, not bombs.



    Seeing alot of hijackings are occuring near Somaliland/Puntland but the bases are in Somalia; not many could distinguish the key differences and knowing them. It would probably just carpet bomb us so thanks but no thanks.
    Shall we call a WAAAAAAAAAMMMBULLLANCE for the pirates and those who provide them safe harbor?

    If the pirates cannot launch boats from those ports, THEY CANNOT COMMIT ACTS OF PIRACY.

    Stop making excuses for your criminal friends. They took an are godless thieves who can surrender and be punished in a civilized manner OR THEY CAN ALL BE DESTROYED.

    Accept it.

  8. #108
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    Re: Should the U.S. Navy shell Somali villages that harbor pirates?

    Quote Originally Posted by EgoffTib View Post
    If you lived in a hut, you would live off of anything you could. Get off of your high horse.
    Stop making excuses for criminals, Egoftib.

  9. #109
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    Re: Should the U.S. Navy shell Somali villages that harbor pirates?

    Ah, lovely Somalia. Monument to the full potential of small government. It's such an ugly thing because we can't have our ships being hijacked and our sailors held hostage, and we have the right (and yes an obligation) to defend ourselves.
    At the same time, one should not underestimate the importance in situational factors in fueling piracy. These pirates are basically children with no other prospects for survival let alone gainful employment, and no one here can say for certain that finding themselves raised in conditions of perpetual poverty, starvation and violence they would not do the same. This whole ugliness is a monument to the consequences of allowing inhuman poverty to exist in our time.
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  10. #110
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    Re: Should the U.S. Navy shell Somali villages that harbor pirates?

    I say once the pirates start shelling boats then its OK to shell them. Until then, use spies and shadow ops.



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    Last edited by dirtpoorchris; 04-17-09 at 12:57 AM.
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