View Poll Results: Are marriage licenses good or bad

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  • Yes -- government needs to issue them

    8 28.57%
  • No -- government should not be issuing them

    20 71.43%
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Thread: Are marriage licenses good or bad?

  1. #31
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    Re: Are marriage licenses good or bad?

    Quote Originally Posted by LaMidRighter View Post
    I've parted ways with many women, never my weapon though.
    LOL....good point. Perhaps I should have said "will not have taken from him" instead.

  2. #32
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    Re: Are marriage licenses good or bad?

    Quote Originally Posted by rivrrat View Post

    Quote Originally Posted by Goshin
    If there is property, there has to be some method for dividing it in the event the couple part ways. Without a contract, whoever has things in their name walks away with them, in the absence of other laws.
    That can be taken care of without a marriage contract.

    Quote Originally Posted by Goshin
    Deciding who gets primary custody of the children, whether/how much the other parent gets visitation or a say in the children's upbringing, these are all problems if there is no contract or law about couple-dom.
    Marriage is not even remotely necessary to solve this problem either.
    .
    I admit to being a little confused. In the absence of a contract or a legal structure for dealing with broken marriages or marriage-like relationships, how would these issues be solved? I wonder if I have misunderstood you somewhere, would you clarify please?

    G.

  3. #33
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    Re: Are marriage licenses good or bad?

    Quote Originally Posted by celticlord View Post
    LOL....good point. Perhaps I should have said "will not have taken from him" instead.
    I can agree to that.
    Neither side in an argument can find the truth when both make an absolute claim on it.

    LMR

  4. #34
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    Re: Are marriage licenses good or bad?

    Quote Originally Posted by celticlord View Post
    By increasing the degree of difficulty involved in ending a relationship. The less easy it is to walk out, the more reason one has to stay. Any long term relationship is going to have its share of bad times where, all things being equal, walking out is going to seem attractive. Most of the time, those bad times will pass, and, if the partners are willing, most differences can be resolved. Making leaving a reasonably difficult proposition gives added incentive to working things out.
    There is no difficulty in walking out. You just walk out. Simple.

    When my parents got divorced, it took all of five minutes.
    When a couple good friends of mine got divorced, it took all of five minutes.
    When my boyfriend got divorced, it only took a bit to draw up the paperwork.

    So really, no... I don't see a marriage contract being any incentive to hang around somewhere you don't want to be.

    There are not too many well written contracts that can be that capriciously voided. That "signature" is more binding than love ever will be.
    Seems pretty damn easy. The only way it would be hard is if the people involved want to MAKE it hard. Otherwise, it's just a matter of signing another piece of paper.

    What is today called "marriage" has two dimensions, religious and legal/social. The religious aspects should be outside the purview of government. The legal and social aspects are arguably valid matters for government; at the very least a strong case can be made for government recognition of relationships as a means to protect various property rights in the event of a breakup. Absolutely the two should be separated, but that does not mean that the larger community does not benefit from people and especially parents having stable long-term relationships.
    Which can be had without marriage contracts.

    Not really. Whether it's called "marriage" or "civil union", whether we explicitly acknowledge it or no, there are elements of a contract even in the current state of civil marriage today. Wherever you have bilateral obligations, you have some form of contract by definition. Not only can things not be taken care of without some form of contract, in any relationship the contractual elements are unavoidable.
    Quite frankly, if it was yours going into the relationship, it should be yours going out of it. And if you jointly go into something else (such as credit cards, buying a house, etc) resolving those issues don't require a marriage contract since some other contract is already involved.

    Perhaps not, but a strong relationship where the partners are incented to live and work together to build a healthy family and household is definitely a healthy environment overall for children. That much is beyond all debate.
    A piece of paper isn't an incentive. They either want to be in the relationship, or they don't. They either want to make it work, or they don't. No piece of paper changes that. For the truly foolish, all the piece of paper does is give an incentive to hang around in an unhappy and thus unhealthy environment. No child is better off with both parents if both parents are miserable. And, if both parents are only hanging around because they signed some piece of paper, then they're idiots.

    On its own? No. But the idea isn't to replace love and affection with contracts, but to augment love and affection with contracts.
    LOL Love isn't "augmented" by contracts.

    On its own, it's no more sufficient than love. Love coupled with a good contract, however, has a significantly greater chance of enduring than love on its own. Anyone who believes otherwise....probably has never been in love.
    No contract on this planet or even any that haven't been conceived of yet could help a relationship. IMO, if someone thinks some piece of paper can help their relationship, then they haven't been in love. The piece of paper is just that... a piece of paper. Emotions are entirely independent of and not reliant upon signatures on some paper.



    Quote Originally Posted by Goshin View Post
    I admit to being a little confused. In the absence of a contract or a legal structure for dealing with broken marriages or marriage-like relationships, how would these issues be solved? I wonder if I have misunderstood you somewhere, would you clarify please?

    G.
    A parent isn't a parent because they're married. If two people are together and have children, being married doesn't make the custody issue any easier when they separate. Custody is entirely independent of marriage since it relies upon father or motherhood (or adoption), and not a marriage license. Women can get child support from the father regardless of if they married him or not. Men can get custody and visitation of a child regardless of if they married the mother.

  5. #35
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    Re: Are marriage licenses good or bad?

    They are good. They maintain one last vestige of intermediate association between the individual and the state, one last refugee against atomistic individualism and the inevitable statism that accompanies it.

    It is a rather pathetic residue but at least it creates some kind of legal association where the couple are treated as such and not as abstract, mass individuals, they have some kind of pooled power and autonomy from the constant intrusion of the state.
    Last edited by Wessexman; 04-11-09 at 11:22 PM.
    "It is written in the eternal constitution that men of intemperate minds cannot be free. Their passions forge their fetters." - Edmund Burke

  6. #36
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    Re: Are marriage licenses good or bad?

    Quote Originally Posted by rivrrat View Post
    A contract isn't required for 'mommy and daddy' to stay together. So that's really not a reason for said contracts.
    This is a quite shallow intepretation of the situation.

    The contract and recognition, aside from legal benefits and the cohesion and autonomy they provide, are part of forming and maintaining an ideational place for the said relationship in society, one where walking away from it is discouraged and where it is considered a long-term committment based around a sincere love.

    If we say we desire these relationships to be long term for social purposes then it the rleationship shall require both the supply of material functions and necessary roles in the lives of individuals and to be accompanied by a sufficient ideational background to maintain many of them for long term survival. Remove either of these and they become perilous and less likely to survive.
    Last edited by Wessexman; 04-11-09 at 11:34 PM.
    "It is written in the eternal constitution that men of intemperate minds cannot be free. Their passions forge their fetters." - Edmund Burke

  7. #37
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    Re: Are marriage licenses good or bad?

    Quote Originally Posted by rivrrat View Post
    There is no difficulty in walking out. You just walk out. Simple.
    Walking out is never simple. This I know from both sides of that experience.

    Quote Originally Posted by rivrrat View Post
    When my parents got divorced, it took all of five minutes.
    When a couple good friends of mine got divorced, it took all of five minutes.
    When my boyfriend got divorced, it only took a bit to draw up the paperwork.
    Unlikely. In the state of Texas, for example, it takes a statutory minimum of 60 days for a divorce to complete. While some divorce petitions are easy to draw up, others are not so simple. If a lawyer was involved, you can bet the petition was neither quick nor simple to draft.

    Quote Originally Posted by rivrrat View Post
    No contract on this planet or even any that haven't been conceived of yet could help a relationship. IMO, if someone thinks some piece of paper can help their relationship, then they haven't been in love. The piece of paper is just that... a piece of paper. Emotions are entirely independent of and not reliant upon signatures on some paper.
    Similarly, relationships are independent of and not reliant upon emotions. Frankly, anyone who feels otherwise has not had a mature relationship in their life.

  8. #38
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    Re: Are marriage licenses good or bad?

    Quote Originally Posted by Korimyr the Rat View Post
    I don't know. Do you think universal mastery of Tai Chi and consumption of V8 would provide as much social benefit as having the majority of children grow up in homes with both of their parents?
    Whether Universal Mastery of Tai Chi provides more or less social benefit than having families held together soley by legal and financial necessity does not seem particularly relevent to the discussion.

    Your claim was that it was the government's job to provide incentives for marriage because it benefitted society, not because it benefitted society more than Tai Chi did. Assuming both benefit society to some degree, there is no reason the government can't provide incentives for both.

    And do you think it's possible to provide meaningful incentives to do these things without spending an inordinate amount of money or unduly imposing in peoples' lives?
    Sure. Give people who have recieved certification from a Government certified Dojo a tax break, and just tax everyone else more to pick up the slack. That is no more of an imposition on peoples lives than the already considerable imposion that income taxes pose on people's personal lives already, and it doesn't really cost anything, since the loss of revenue from the Tai Chi tax breaks can be made up for by increased taxes on those who don't toe the Tai Chi line.

  9. #39
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    Re: Are marriage licenses good or bad?

    Quote Originally Posted by rivrrat View Post
    There is no difficulty in walking out. You just walk out. Simple.

    When my parents got divorced, it took all of five minutes.
    When a couple good friends of mine got divorced, it took all of five minutes.
    When my boyfriend got divorced, it only took a bit to draw up the paperwork.
    Putting my (ex)wife out of the house took a few hours, mostly due to the packing after the yelling and screaming. Completing the divorce took another seven months, even though I had cause and the theoretical right to a 90-day divorce in my state, and even though we were able to come to an agreement on property and custody without arbitration. Non-cause divorces take a year minimum, here.

    The walking out part might take five minutes, but if there's kids or property to be dealt with its going to take a lot longer to resolve that. Especially if one or both decide to be unreasonable.


    A piece of paper isn't an incentive. They either want to be in the relationship, or they don't. They either want to make it work, or they don't. No piece of paper changes that. For the truly foolish, all the piece of paper does is give an incentive to hang around in an unhappy and thus unhealthy environment. No child is better off with both parents if both parents are miserable. And, if both parents are only hanging around because they signed some piece of paper, then they're idiots.
    Hm...I agree with you in part. "Hanging in there" through a time of difficulty is one thing, being perpetually miserable is another thing. Nor do kids benefit from a household where the parents can't stand the sight of each other...one of the main reasons I finally decided on divorce. However....well, see below:


    LOL Love isn't "augmented" by contracts.

    No contract on this planet or even any that haven't been conceived of yet could help a relationship. IMO, if someone thinks some piece of paper can help their relationship, then they haven't been in love. The piece of paper is just that... a piece of paper. Emotions are entirely independent of and not reliant upon signatures on some paper.
    Weeeeeeeell....I dunno. Emotions are funny things. The first year or two of marriage/relationship, its easy to be passionately, wildly in love. That's mostly infatuation though, and it fades eventually. Hopefully by then you've discovered that you actually have enough in common to love (and like) each other anyway, and that your relationship wasn't merely infatuation and nothing more. (I think this goes with what I said about "unreasonable expectations" these days, too.)

    I've known a number of people who were married for life (50+ yrs). I've heard some of them say that passion comes and goes, and that sometimes through a rough patch you may not even feel "in love" for a time, but that staying together and working through these things was worth it. I regret to say this is outside my own experience, but sometimes I wish it had been otherwise.

    Ideally, marriage is something like this: you tell each other that your love and committment are such that you wish to formalize that committment, binding yourselves together legally and financially, religiously and socially, as a sign of that committment. In a sense, it's saying that "even if I don't feel in-love with you on Tuesday, I won't walk out the door without trying hard and long to fix things."

    I know people who get divorced these days for no other reason than one saying to the other: "I love you, but I'm not IN love with you anymore." I think that's really sad, and indicative of unreasonable expectations, lack of committment, or possibly getting married too quickly for shallow reasons in the first place. Very sad indeed when children are involved.


    A parent isn't a parent because they're married. If two people are together and have children, being married doesn't make the custody issue any easier when they separate. Custody is entirely independent of marriage since it relies upon father or motherhood (or adoption), and not a marriage license. Women can get child support from the father regardless of if they married him or not. Men can get custody and visitation of a child regardless of if they married the mother.
    I agree with your first sentence: being a real parent is a lifelong committment of love and care, not merely a matter of biology. Your last sentence, I have my doubts. Men often get the short end of the stick in custody even if they were married, and I expect not being married would not help that any.

    Respects,

    G.
    Last edited by Goshin; 04-12-09 at 11:53 AM.

  10. #40
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    Re: Are marriage licenses good or bad?

    Quote Originally Posted by Cephus View Post
    Which is really all a marriage license is, it's a contract between two people, nothing more, nothing less.
    Actually more, lets not forget about their children...

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