View Poll Results: What types of alternative lifestyles do you also support?

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  • Polygamy (One man several wives)

    24 61.54%
  • Polyandry (One wife several husbands)

    23 58.97%
  • Polyamory (One or more men, one or more women)

    25 64.10%
  • Open Marriage

    25 64.10%
  • None of the above

    13 33.33%
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Thread: For those who support gay marriage

  1. #51
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    Re: For those who support gay marriage

    Quote Originally Posted by CaptainCourtesy View Post
    1) I asked the question first. Be my guest in attempting to respond to it.
    http://www.debatepolitics.com/polls/...post1057981042

    I did. There is not a wealth of statistical evidence--for obvious reasons--but there is both evidence and theory to give credence to the position that poly family structures are innately no worse than traditional marriage.

    Quote Originally Posted by CaptainCourtesy View Post
    2) When you can prove a negative, one like "God does not exist", I'll give it a go. Until then, your question is irrelevant.
    Not if you reframe his question as being a request to provide proof that poly family structures are in fact harmful to children by leaving them less healthy and able to function than children of traditional married couples. Then his question is exceedingly relevant and deserving of response.

    Given that you appear to favor disallowing plural marriages and the range of poly family structures, establishing the foundation for such disallowance, presumably by demonstrating with evidence the harm done, is reasonable, appropriate, and one might even say courteous.

    Quote Originally Posted by CaptainCourtesy View Post
    There is plenty of research that shows that married couples are healthier, happier, and the children of married couples function better. Plenty.
    Does that research support the status of being a couple or the status of being married? Does any of that research show harm to children from being more than a couple (i.e., poly)?

    If there is no demonstrable harm, what civil interest is served by limiting relationship choices to monogamous marriage?

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    Re: For those who support gay marriage

    Quote Originally Posted by CaptainCourtesy View Post
    1) I asked the question first. Be my guest in attempting to respond to it.

    2) When you can prove a negative, one like "God does not exist", I'll give it a go. Until then, your question is irrelevant.
    1) you asked the question of someone else in some other thread. Therefore, I actually asked you first... in this thread. So you should answer.

    2) I'm not asking you to prove a negative like the example you gave. Your assertion is that the government supports a 2 parent marriage based on some data, provide that data and it must certainly show the statistics that I asked. Otherwise it's not much of a study if you just made up a conclusion and put it on paper.

    There is plenty of research that shows that married couples are healthier, happier, and the children of married couples function better. Plenty.
    Then providing it to back up your claim when challenged would seem prudent and obviously, according to you, easy to find.
    Last edited by Slippery Slope; 04-08-09 at 02:09 PM.

  3. #53
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    Re: For those who support gay marriage

    Quote Originally Posted by Slippery Slope View Post
    1) you asked the question of someone else in some other thread. Therefore, I actually asked you first... in this thread. So you should answer.
    I asked the question first in this thread...which is what you were responding to. Your move.

    2) I'm not asking you to prove a negative like the example you gave. Your assertion is that the government supports a 2 parent marriage based on some data, provide that data and it must certainly show the statistics that I asked. Otherwise it's not much of a study if you just made up a conclusion and put it on paper.
    You did not ask for me to prove my position. You asked for me to prove yours. That's your job. Still your move.


    Then providing it to back up your claim when challenged would seem prudent and obviously, according to you, easy to find.
    Sure. And since you are not stupid, this is information you surely know, as do most people. I will not take your bait.

    Still your move.
    "Never fear. Him is here" - Captain Chaos (Dom DeLuise), Cannonball Run

    Mace Windu: Then our worst fears have been realized. We must move quickly if the Jedi Order is to survive.

    ====||:-D

    Quote Originally Posted by Wiseone View Post
    This is what I hate about politics the most, it turns people in snobbish egotistical self righteous dicks who allow their political beliefs, partisan attitudes, and 'us vs. them' mentality, to force them to deny reality.

    Quote Originally Posted by Navy Pride View Post
    You can't paint everone with the same brush.......It does not work tht way.


    Quote Originally Posted by Wessexman View Post
    See with you around Captain we don't even have to make arguments, as you already know everything .
    Quote Originally Posted by CriticalThought View Post
    Had you been born elsewhere or at a different time you may very well have chosen a different belief system.
    Quote Originally Posted by ernst barkmann View Post
    It a person has faith they dont need to convince another of it, and when a non believer is not interested in listening to the word of the lord, " you shake the dust from your sandels and move on"

  4. #54
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    Re: For those who support gay marriage

    I'm not sure how I missed this post.

    Absolutely no information on how it affects the children. Because of this, and because my premise was, "None of these can show benefits to the family, children, the human condition, or the government", your link does neither addresses nor refutes my statement.

    The Future of The Family and The Fate of Our Children, by Dr. Deborah Taj Anapol, Ph.D.
    This is nothing but an essay, and still offers zero evidence or data. Further, the author makes a non-sequitur extrapolation, using the belief that children would benefit from having an involved extended family to prove his position. No evidence to support this, or my comment, "none of these can show benefits to the family, children, the human condition, or the government."

    Still no evidence to contradict my presentation.

    And you are one of the last people I would have thought would have taken the position, "It Takes a Village".



    There is not a wealth of statistical evidence or case studies about these family structures, but such evidence and theory as does exist at the very least these family structures are no less able to provide a healthy environment for raising children and sustaining families.
    Please post any data that refutes my position. I see none.

    It's Better with Three

    The anecdotal evidence supporting the viability of poly structures is at the very least sufficiently intriguing that Terri Conley, associate professor at the University of Missouri-Kansas City, began a study last year into poly families.
    Here's a comment from Conley, the lead researcher that you might find interesting:

    But they just adopted a 2-year-old girl from Kazakhstan, and Conley says their lives are too crazy to think about getting involved with someone else. "Maybe down the road, that'll be something we explore," she says.
    Sounds like the consideration of their new child is part of the decision to NOT get involved in a polymorphous relationship. Hmmm...even the lead researcher.

    At the very least, it is fair to say that there is some evidence these family structures have the potential to be healthy environments for sustaining families and raising children.
    No, there isn't. You didn't present any, so this is an inaccurate conclusion.

    My position stands.
    "Never fear. Him is here" - Captain Chaos (Dom DeLuise), Cannonball Run

    Mace Windu: Then our worst fears have been realized. We must move quickly if the Jedi Order is to survive.

    ====||:-D

    Quote Originally Posted by Wiseone View Post
    This is what I hate about politics the most, it turns people in snobbish egotistical self righteous dicks who allow their political beliefs, partisan attitudes, and 'us vs. them' mentality, to force them to deny reality.

    Quote Originally Posted by Navy Pride View Post
    You can't paint everone with the same brush.......It does not work tht way.


    Quote Originally Posted by Wessexman View Post
    See with you around Captain we don't even have to make arguments, as you already know everything .
    Quote Originally Posted by CriticalThought View Post
    Had you been born elsewhere or at a different time you may very well have chosen a different belief system.
    Quote Originally Posted by ernst barkmann View Post
    It a person has faith they dont need to convince another of it, and when a non believer is not interested in listening to the word of the lord, " you shake the dust from your sandels and move on"

  5. #55
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    Re: For those who support gay marriage

    Quote Originally Posted by celticlord View Post
    http://www.debatepolitics.com/polls/...post1057981042

    I did. There is not a wealth of statistical evidence--for obvious reasons--but there is both evidence and theory to give credence to the position that poly family structures are innately no worse than traditional marriage.
    No, there isn't. Read my debunking of your "evidence".



    Not if you reframe his question as being a request to provide proof that poly family structures are in fact harmful to children by leaving them less healthy and able to function than children of traditional married couples. Then his question is exceedingly relevant and deserving of response.
    This is not my position. My position is this, again: "none of these can show benefits to the family, children, the human condition, or the government". I am not saying that they are detrimental. I am saying that there is no evidence that they benefit. If you want to disprove my statement, show me evidence that they are beneficial to any of the things I mentioned. This is consistent with my position on pro-GM. There is evidence that shows that gay marriage is beneficial in the ways that I mentioned.

    Given that you appear to favor disallowing plural marriages and the range of poly family structures, establishing the foundation for such disallowance, presumably by demonstrating with evidence the harm done, is reasonable, appropriate, and one might even say courteous.
    I am in favor of disallowing plural marriages because I see no evidence that it is beneficial. I have shown, in the other thread, how it is completely different, structurally, from gay marriage, so in order for me to support it, I need to see evidence that it is beneficial. There is plenty to back the pro-GM position; if there wasn't, I wouldn't support it.

    It is his job to disprove my position, not to alter my position.


    Does that research support the status of being a couple or the status of being married? Does any of that research show harm to children from being more than a couple (i.e., poly)?
    The research is generally limited to committed relationships, marriage mostly.

    And there is no research on children from plural marriages, as I have said.

    If there is no demonstrable harm, what civil interest is served by limiting relationship choices to monogamous marriage?
    If there is no demonstrative benefit, what civil interest is served by allowing plural marriage? I am arguing from the standpoint of benefits to the family and children. Until you can show me evidence that plural marriage does this, I reject it.
    "Never fear. Him is here" - Captain Chaos (Dom DeLuise), Cannonball Run

    Mace Windu: Then our worst fears have been realized. We must move quickly if the Jedi Order is to survive.

    ====||:-D

    Quote Originally Posted by Wiseone View Post
    This is what I hate about politics the most, it turns people in snobbish egotistical self righteous dicks who allow their political beliefs, partisan attitudes, and 'us vs. them' mentality, to force them to deny reality.

    Quote Originally Posted by Navy Pride View Post
    You can't paint everone with the same brush.......It does not work tht way.


    Quote Originally Posted by Wessexman View Post
    See with you around Captain we don't even have to make arguments, as you already know everything .
    Quote Originally Posted by CriticalThought View Post
    Had you been born elsewhere or at a different time you may very well have chosen a different belief system.
    Quote Originally Posted by ernst barkmann View Post
    It a person has faith they dont need to convince another of it, and when a non believer is not interested in listening to the word of the lord, " you shake the dust from your sandels and move on"

  6. #56
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    Re: For those who support gay marriage

    Quote Originally Posted by CaptainCourtesy View Post
    If there is no demonstrative benefit, what civil interest is served by allowing plural marriage? I am arguing from the standpoint of benefits to the family and children. Until you can show me evidence that plural marriage does this, I reject it.
    The civil interest is called liberty. If there is no harm, if there is no proven harm, then the default answer ever and always should be freedom to choose.

    The question is never what should the government allow, but what must the government be required to disallow.

    If people want plural marriage, unless and until it can be shown that plural marriage is decidedly harmful--and this you have not done, nor even attempted to do--it is in the interest of freedom and liberty that people be allowed plural marriage.

    Freedom is the pre-eminent civic interest.

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    Re: For those who support gay marriage

    Quote Originally Posted by CaptainCourtesy View Post
    I asked the question first in this thread...which is what you were responding to. Your move.



    You did not ask for me to prove my position. You asked for me to prove yours. That's your job. Still your move.




    Sure. And since you are not stupid, this is information you surely know, as do most people. I will not take your bait.

    Still your move.
    I disagree with all of your "it's your move" since you are making a claim and not backing it up with anything other than your claim. Therefore, since you seem determined to avoid providing evidence for your claim when challenged we should assume that it's nothing but an unsubstantiated claim/ your opinion.

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    Re: For those who support gay marriage

    Quote Originally Posted by CaptainCourtesy View Post
    No, there isn't. Read my debunking of your "evidence".





    This is not my position. My position is this, again: "none of these can show benefits to the family, children, the human condition, or the government". I am not saying that they are detrimental. I am saying that there is no evidence that they benefit. If you want to disprove my statement, show me evidence that they are beneficial to any of the things I mentioned. This is consistent with my position on pro-GM. There is evidence that shows that gay marriage is beneficial in the ways that I mentioned.



    I am in favor of disallowing plural marriages because I see no evidence that it is beneficial. I have shown, in the other thread, how it is completely different, structurally, from gay marriage, so in order for me to support it, I need to see evidence that it is beneficial. There is plenty to back the pro-GM position; if there wasn't, I wouldn't support it.

    It is his job to disprove my position, not to alter my position.




    The research is generally limited to committed relationships, marriage mostly.

    And there is no research on children from plural marriages, as I have said.



    If there is no demonstrative benefit, what civil interest is served by allowing plural marriage? I am arguing from the standpoint of benefits to the family and children. Until you can show me evidence that plural marriage does this, I reject it.
    You may see no evidence that it is beneficial but you also must see no evidence that it is detrimental. Therefore taking a position against something must be either stupidity, which I don't think you are or simply an emotional response. I think you'd agree, that is a dangerous reason to be for or against something that effects others.

  9. #59
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    Re: For those who support gay marriage

    Quote Originally Posted by celticlord View Post
    The civil interest is called liberty. If there is no harm, if there is no proven harm, then the default answer ever and always should be freedom to choose.
    And this is where we disagree philosophically. History demonstrates that the welfare of the child and family is key, and without evidence of benefit, the default has been security.

    The question is never what should the government allow, but what must the government be required to disallow.
    Should doesn't exist. Reality is what the government allows.

    If people want plural marriage, unless and until it can be shown that plural marriage is decidedly harmful--and this you have not done, nor even attempted to do--it is in the interest of freedom and liberty that people be allowed plural marriage.
    If people want plural marriage, it must be shown to meet the criteria that is beneficial to the family and the children. Your position is principle. Mine is actual application.

    Freedom is the pre-eminent civic interest.
    Freedom and security is the pre-eminent civic interest. Without the second, we have anarchy.
    "Never fear. Him is here" - Captain Chaos (Dom DeLuise), Cannonball Run

    Mace Windu: Then our worst fears have been realized. We must move quickly if the Jedi Order is to survive.

    ====||:-D

    Quote Originally Posted by Wiseone View Post
    This is what I hate about politics the most, it turns people in snobbish egotistical self righteous dicks who allow their political beliefs, partisan attitudes, and 'us vs. them' mentality, to force them to deny reality.

    Quote Originally Posted by Navy Pride View Post
    You can't paint everone with the same brush.......It does not work tht way.


    Quote Originally Posted by Wessexman View Post
    See with you around Captain we don't even have to make arguments, as you already know everything .
    Quote Originally Posted by CriticalThought View Post
    Had you been born elsewhere or at a different time you may very well have chosen a different belief system.
    Quote Originally Posted by ernst barkmann View Post
    It a person has faith they dont need to convince another of it, and when a non believer is not interested in listening to the word of the lord, " you shake the dust from your sandels and move on"

  10. #60
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    Re: For those who support gay marriage

    Quote Originally Posted by Slippery Slope View Post
    I disagree with all of your "it's your move" since you are making a claim and not backing it up with anything other than your claim. Therefore, since you seem determined to avoid providing evidence for your claim when challenged we should assume that it's nothing but an unsubstantiated claim/ your opinion.
    Disagree all you want. You initiated this by responding to this statement of mine, which you posted in this thread: "Please show some evidence that polygamous marriage rears children as healthy and able to function as children of hetero- and homosexual marriage. There is plenty of data on both of those. I do not see why the government should support something unless there is some data showing it is helpful."

    I asked first. If you have no evidence of your position, just say so and we can move on.
    "Never fear. Him is here" - Captain Chaos (Dom DeLuise), Cannonball Run

    Mace Windu: Then our worst fears have been realized. We must move quickly if the Jedi Order is to survive.

    ====||:-D

    Quote Originally Posted by Wiseone View Post
    This is what I hate about politics the most, it turns people in snobbish egotistical self righteous dicks who allow their political beliefs, partisan attitudes, and 'us vs. them' mentality, to force them to deny reality.

    Quote Originally Posted by Navy Pride View Post
    You can't paint everone with the same brush.......It does not work tht way.


    Quote Originally Posted by Wessexman View Post
    See with you around Captain we don't even have to make arguments, as you already know everything .
    Quote Originally Posted by CriticalThought View Post
    Had you been born elsewhere or at a different time you may very well have chosen a different belief system.
    Quote Originally Posted by ernst barkmann View Post
    It a person has faith they dont need to convince another of it, and when a non believer is not interested in listening to the word of the lord, " you shake the dust from your sandels and move on"

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